Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

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Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby jbotti » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:19 pm

When I heard that Harald was moving away from foam liners and was skiing an intuition liner I wasn't sure what was going on. I love my Nordica foam liners and I wouldn't trade them for the anything. Since moving back to skiing my Head Raptor Boots I was in need of a foam like liner for my Raptor 150's. They say that the last size is the same between the 130 and the 150 but the 150 is tighter and when I put my foam liners from the 130s in the 150s they are too tight to ski. After talking with Harald and Chris about the intuition Pro Tongues I had a pair shipped to me. My shop in Montana baked them for me and set me up with toe caps and corked up my hot spots. The last 5 minutes of the 15 to mold the liner were as painful as anything I can remember but this is a seriously tight lasted boot. After skiing these two days I can say for sure they are awesome liners. They are firmer than injected foam liners and Harald and Intuition say that they stiffen the boots by 20% or so (not sure how scientific that number is but you can feel the power in this liner). In a tight lasted boot the fit is totally glove like and it feels very similar to injected foam except is a good bit firmer. I can't ski in regular stock liners once I got used to injected foam. This liner rivals injected foam and may actually be better. What I haven't done is to drop this liner in my 130s and see how they feel. Some percentage of what I was feeling power wise was the 150s which are tighter and stiffer. But my sense is that some percentage of the power was also from the liners. If that is the case, they are a strong candidate to replace my injected foam liners in my 130s. I love the 150s but they are real pain to get in and out of unless they are warm. The 130's with the Pro Tongue Liners may be the perfect combo creating a boot that is easy to get in and out of that has darn close to the power of the 150s. Clearly I will do that test my next time on snow.

For anyone looking for new liners, these are awesome and a worthy replacement for the injected foam liners that so many of us have grown to love. I never thought I would find a rival to injected foam liners much less one that might be better. These things rock!!
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby HighAngles » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:01 pm

I wish that Intuition would "fess up" about what they're doing differently with the Ultralon foam in the Pro Tongue liner. This liner is significantly stiffer than anything else Intuition had been producing previously. Their web site really doesn't sufficiently explain just how much stiffer this liner is than their other models (including the HD/FX Race and Power Wrap models). I have skied Intuition liners for many years and decided to try the Pro Tongue at the beginning of this season. In the end I decided that this liner just wasn't what I was looking for when it came to my Raptor Overkill shells, but for the ultimate in responsiveness and close fit, it's a great pairing with the Head Raptor shells.
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby Smackboy1 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 7:18 am

jbotti wrote:The last 5 minutes of the 15 to mold the liner were as painful as anything I can remember but this is a seriously tight lasted boot. . .


I felt your pain - TWICE :cry: The first time the Pro Tongue was way way too tight in new Dodge boots so after 2 excruciating hours of camp, the boots were punched and the liners molded again. I noticed quite a few campers upgrading to the Pro Tongue. Much better than the stock Dodge liner. They're still pretty darn snug. I've never had foam liners, but my previous boots had a Power Wrap and the Pro Tongue is definitely more robustly constructed. I wonder if the extra stiffness is from a change in the heat moldable Ultralon foam, or the stiffer red outer layer around the cuff? In order make room for the heel channel, part of the red layer is cut away.

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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby docmartin » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:29 am

jbotti wrote: Since moving back to skiing my Head Raptor Boots

weren't you skiing Dodge boots? What happened? I picked up Dodges a couple of weeks ago and am skiing them with my zipfit gara liner. works well for me and I have a hard time imagining that something else could be better. I also have not tried anything else. Ignorance is bliss...
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby HighAngles » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:53 am

Smackboy1 wrote: I wonder if the extra stiffness is from a change in the heat moldable Ultralon foam, or the stiffer red outer layer around the cuff? In order make room for the heel channel, part of the red layer is cut away.

I don't believe it's due to the wrap around the cuff. It's the foam that's significantly stiffer. I remember one of the campers at A-Basin a few weeks ago commenting on how stiff her new Pro Tongue liners were. I think that possibly baking them twice could improve things, but I'm not sure. Normally subsequent bakes make the foam more dense and decreases overall volume (making the fit a tad more roomy).
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby CO_Steve » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:59 am

I've been in the Pro Tongue since last year in my older 130s. So far perfect. Not breaking down or packing out. Toasty warm is another added benefit.
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby jbotti » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:47 pm

docmartin wrote:
jbotti wrote: Since moving back to skiing my Head Raptor Boots

weren't you skiing Dodge boots? What happened? I picked up Dodges a couple of weeks ago and am skiing them with my zipfit gara liner. works well for me and I have a hard time imagining that something else could be better. I also have not tried anything else. Ignorance is bliss...


Yes, I had a few specific issues to me, my skiing and my anatomy that makes the Raptors a better choice right now. I can get quite bit more forward lean in the Raptors than I can in the Dodges and with the length of my femurs (I have very long legs) every bit of forward lean helps my fore aft balance. The heel plates I have on the Raptors can't be put on the Dodges and the Raptors are 16 degrees of FL quite a bit more than the Dodges the way I have them set up. Additionally, I had cut my foam liners (in the back) to allow easier entry into the dodges which aren't meant to be used with foam liners and over the past 2 years I have ripped one liner to shreds. Part of the problem is that my right foot has been set wrong after a broken ankle many years ago and I am off by 13 degrees, which makes it even harder to get into the dodges with foam liners (only on my right foot, the left has no issue and the liner is still perfectly intact).

I view the boots as very equal with one doing some things better and the other doing other things better. The Dodges rule the high C. There is not another boot that gives the same level of grip at the top of the turn. You feel instant engagement, which builds huge confidence and you can be more aggressive with pressure earlier in the turn. I think the Raptors are better later in the arc. I can bend skis better (also due to my improved fore aft balance) and I find that I am carving tighter arcs on the Heads when I am skiing well. Since I have no problem with the high C and can make the Raptors perform just fine there, the better fore aft set up and the better action towards the bottom of the arc make it a better boot for me (and 80% is the fore aft set up for me). Harald can produce the same turns with both and has no fore aft issues in either boot. He has moved back to Heads because of fit which I can also say is a factor for me as well (95mm last versus 98mm for Dodge). Harald is between sizes in the Dodges. The 26 is too big and he skis the 25 but he can't straighten his toes which can only work for so long.

Just as with skis, some boots do some things better and or less well than others and carbon Fiber is a whole new frontier. I feel like I own the two best boots made but the Heads are better for me currently.
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby docmartin » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:20 pm

Thank you for taking the time to explain. I am lucky because the Dodge in a 25 fit me perfectly. In that size it is 95mm. The 26 would be too wide for me since they are 98mm. I still have to have Harald or Chris check my alignment when I get there later this month. It feels great to me. As for you, forward lean is much less than in my old boots. In my case, the more upright stance helps me to get my hip forward which has been one of my issues.
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby jbotti » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:37 pm

docmartin wrote: In my case, the more upright stance helps me to get my hip forward which has been one of my issues.


That is the case with most people. For the really tall ones with long femurs extra FL is not only a good thing it's rather necessary.
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby jbotti » Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:43 pm

Forgot to mention the toe box. The Nordica foam liners have elastic around the toe box and the toe box of the liner is really tight even if you stretch the elastic (which I have many times). I have accepted this as part of the price to pay for a great liner in every other aspect. The Pro Tongue has amazing toe box room which I wouldn't have thought possible inside the Raptor B2s (150's). Toes were actually laying flat, a new experience for me!
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:10 am

jbotti wrote:Forgot to mention the toe box. The Nordica foam liners have elastic around the toe box and the toe box of the liner is really tight even if you stretch the elastic (which I have many times). I have accepted this as part of the price to pay for a great liner in every other aspect. The Pro Tongue has amazing toe box room which I wouldn't have thought possible inside the Raptor B2s (150's). Toes were actually laying flat, a new experience for me!


I've never understood why liners are so darn tight in the toe box. I want the toe box to be somewhat loose so the blood can flow freely to the toes and keep them warm. I don't need a super tight fit in the toe box! Great to hear the Pro Tongue has done it right!
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby HighAngles » Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:29 am

Liners and shells

Why in the world would a boot manufacturer ever design a liner or a shell without a roomier toe box? Do they think we derive performance from our toes? All I can say is that cold toes subtract from my performance. :lol:
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby bowlhiker » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:24 pm

It just occurred to me the other day that my liner in my 130's might be not be working for me the way it used to. I got 200 days in 'em.

So are you guys saying I can put the Intuition line in my 130's and back to a new boot?
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Re: Intuition Pro Tongue Liner

Postby jbotti » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:19 pm

I have only skied them in my 150's but I think it's a pretty remarkable liner. Takes up quite a bit of space, is super firm and amazingly responsive. These versus packed out stock liners (at 200 days) is a no-brainer and yes I think they will feel like new boots (except better). Make sure you don't cook your footbeds when you mold the liner and make sure you use toe caps. Better to get a good shop to bake them and mold them for you.
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