Recommendations for 2013/14 Powder Skis?

[Max_501]

Just checked, Bachelor is at 385 for 30 year average (pretty sweet) and Baker gets a whopping 656inches on average -well and by far the snowiest resort in the lower 48!

Are your numbers based on modeling or actual daily measurements from the mountain?

The 385" you gave for Bachelor is for 6,350 which is near the base. What we want to know is the average snowfall higher up, at least at mid mountain. The annual average time period used by your favorite website is from Nov 1 through April 30 which is too short for Western resorts which can get big snowstorms from October through May.

[jbotti]

Wow, I can't believe anyone is actually claiming that they get more snow in VT and Maine than at Bachelor or in places like Tahoe (or actually even comparing east coast snowfall to that of the Sierras or PNW). I'll be polite and not use the word moronic (damn I didn't mean to say that ).

Come on, let's have intelligent discussions!

[h.harb]

No John, I think we should support that idea, maybe all the top powder skiers and powder hungry skiers will move back to Vermont and NH. That way there will be less tracks on powder days out here. Every time I talk to a ski rep they tell me they wish they could sell wide, rockered powder skis as well in the east, go figure???

[h.harb]

Twice, back in the early 2000's Jay Peak went over 500 inches, but their 30 year averages are still around 330...that didn't stop Jay from claiming massive yearly averages however--like every ski area .

OK here's the real truth and no kidding, These numbers for yearly snow fall in the east are irrelevant. Most of it doesn't come down as powder in the first place. The storms that do have a foot or more are rare, and during the storm the snow changes to rain and two days later it's 60 degrees still raining, and it's gone. So you can measure all you want the powder skiing in the east is a joke. Even when there is a storm the snow quality is trash, and the snow disintegrates so quickly and is coated with water, that it makes Sierra Cement look like Alta blow away champagne.

[Skizoo]

Twice, back in the early 2000's Jay Peak went over 500 inches, but their 30 year averages are still around 330...that didn't stop Jay from claiming massive yearly averages however--like every ski area .

OK here's the real truth and no kidding, These numbers for yearly snow fall in the east are irrelevant. Most of it doesn't come down as powder in the first place. The storms that do have a foot or more are rare, and during the storm the snow changes to rain and two days later it's 60 degrees still raining, and it's gone. So you can measure all you want the powder skiing in the east is a joke. Even when there is a storm the snow quality is trash, and the snow disintegrates so quickly and is coated with water, that it makes Sierra Cement look like Alta blow away champagne.

The snow totals from Stowe and Jay should be compared to the snow totals of other eastern areas, not the western areas. Apples to apples.

There is a lot more and better powder skiing at Stowe and Jay than there is anywhere else in the east. To me that's where the comparison should be made.

[Max_501]

If there is some ski design you guys think is worth avoiding, a lot of folks would be interested, me included.

You must have missed some of the lengthy threads in years past. Here is one that should answer your question:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3161

We have found that as rocker/early rise increases so does the pivot-ability of the ski, while high C performance and ski tip feedback degrade.

Does that mean you'd also recommend the Elan Spectrum as another pmts powder ski alongside the elusive Jams/ Pariahs and Rnr's?

My Spectrum demo was limited so I am not ready to give them the PMTS seal of approval. That said I think they are worth a test in pow and crud.

What about i.Peak 90? I remember you talked about i.Peak 90 last year. The under-foot width of i.Peak 90 is a couple of mm less than RnR. Is it good for powder skiing?

This is what I wrote after demoing.

The iPeak 90 is an all mountain ski with a bias for off piste use. Its a bit softer than the 84/78 (less metal or no metal, not sure which). Works great in pow, crud, and bumps. And carves nicely on groomers. This is one of my favorite skis in the last 2 years of demos. I tested this ski in a 177.

[jbotti]

With regard to skis I own and know well, for skiing pow with PMTS technique the Head RNR works great but it's not really a pow ski at 94mm underfoot. The Rev 105 is a really nice ski also, more a pow ski, available widely in both this years and last years models. The Icelantic Shaman is a traditionally built ski with a hard tail and no tip or tail rocker that ski great in pow. For the snow in Montana (very light and fluffy, blower most of the time) I now prefer the Rev 105 over the Shaman. It's lighter and has a tighter TR (at least in the 181). It is not as good in crud and chop at speed (in wider more GS type turns) as is the shaman which are tanks, but for making slalom like turns in pow and chop it's great.

These skis all have things in common. Tight TR, minimal or no tip and tail rocker (especially minimal tail rocker) and they all have nice flex patterns. They all support and work well with PMTS movements.

Are there other skis that will fit into the grouping, yes but it is amazing how many skis I try, or Max and Harald (I would listen to them both over me) try that really are going in a very different direction. Nordica and Blizzard come to mind.

Sometimes it's hard to be as critical of our own skiing as we need to be. Take it from someone that has way too many pairs of skis: it's not the skis, it's the skier. If you can't ski pow on one of these skis, then you can't ski pow at least not with PMTS movements.

I have friends that I ski with that will never take a lesson, will never work on their skiing and only ski 5-10 days per year and they want to ski pow. I tell them to get rockered skis with plenty of tail rocker. They have no desire to learn proper technique and won't spend the time to do it it anyway. Most that post on this site don't fit into that category.

On this site we try to only recommend skis that will support PMTS movements ad that's what we do.

[nugget]

Maybe that last line JB wrote should be a sticky. Cheers mate. That snow debate got everyone distracted. Hope smackboy has got some good leads now.

[Smackboy1]

Holy crap! I come back to this thread after a few days off and what has happened!? On the bright side I do have a lot of good leads to follow now.

I confess, no matter how well they ski, I can't get over the graphics of the RnR and the others (sorry Lemmy, not a fan). AFAIK Movement completely pulled out of the N. American market. I have the Jam and I had to buy it from Europe. It's too bad, they have a number of interesting looking skis.

[Skizoo]

Holy crap! I come back to this thread after a few days off and what has happened!? On the bright side I do have a lot of good leads to follow now.

I confess, no matter how well they ski, I can't get over the graphics of the RnR and the others (sorry Lemmy, not a fan). AFAIK Movement completely pulled out of the N. American market. I have the Jam and I had to buy it from Europe. It's too bad, they have a number of interesting looking skis.

I called one of the UK shops that carries Movement a couple weeks ago, and they wanted appx $150 to ship here. I have the 'green' Jams, and they are one of my go to skis. I'd love to find another pair but they're not easy to find anywhere. I Also have a pair of 6 year old 'Sluffs' that don't get much use any more. Movement makes quality skis.

[Skiasaurus Rex]

Wow, I can't believe anyone is actually claiming that they get more snow in VT and Maine than at Bachelor or in places like Tahoe (or actually even comparing east coast snowfall to that of the Sierras or PNW). I'll be polite and not use the word moronic (damn I didn't mean to say that ).

Come on, let's have intelligent discussions!

Uh, I just got back to this thread and I wanted to respond. NO ONE Claimed the East gets more snow than Bachelor or Tahoe. Read my posts JB.

In fact, I listed the PNW. Alta/ bird etc as powder capitals, in fact i wrote that they are 'snow-bomb meccas and better than the east even in our best years.

My only claim was that there are, in fact, powder days in the East-especially in Northern, VT and getting a out on a purpose built ski (even a PMTS oriented purpose built wider ski) is valuable for an East Coaster as well as a Western Skier. That's hardly a radical claim.

And, Looking at Harald's evaluation of east coast snow vs. West coast makes the case that the east coast skier has an even greater need for a purpose built soft snow ski, as our 'powder' is wetter, and seasoned by variable weather events, and often located in hard to reach, narrow places. Whereas western snow is blower on high-alpine slopes.etc. Add to that that our powder usually resides in tighter spaces with a lower base-coverage, well, the needs of float and such are actually greater if you want to ski off piste in the East.

I was in no way making a 'better than' argument, I was just saying that East coast off-piste skiers have a valid interest in powder skis, or at least skis for their type of powder and terrain. And, a PMTS style powder ski is of interest to skiers on either coast.

Honestly, I think to ski Rocky Mountain powder you don't need a special ski at all unless it is very, very deep due to the superior low-water content and deeper snow base and all the reasons you guys have extolled western powder skiing and excoriated eastern soft snow pursuits..

FWIW, I have skied, in powder at Jackson, Taos, Alta-The Bird, Solitude, Targhee,Whitewater/red mountain and Copper. I have also gotten RAINED on at Jackson and Tahoe-right to the summit of kirkwood! Never had powder in 3 trips to Tahoe...had some great spring conditions however. In 14 days, over two separate trips to Summit-Eagle County I had one 6 inch snow day and Skied Copper, which was excellent. I have hit it big in Utah, and I've gotten skunked in Utah. Unless you live very close to a mountain-powder is a crapshoot short of getting on a helicopter...something I have never done, but maybe after I finish paying for three college educations, I'll pony up and give it a shot. Looks great, I liked the stuff JB posted somewhere on Greenland, that's a neat Idea for a trip.

I have never skied any front range mountains like loveland or winter park--but one day I'll book a spring trip for a quick three day april jaunt to denver.

I have never skied the PNW, but I'd love to check out Mt. Baker and Stephen's Pass. I have never skied at Whistler-Blackcomb either, but I imagine that's another powder capital.

Ah, powder. Can we compare corn skiing??? While powder is a gift, Corn seems to be something every ski area gets every year and, after powder, it's the next best thing. In fact, those perfect corn days in the glades are, to my mind, just as good. I know, blasphemy. Well, mea culpa let me be damned, I love corn...and I love skiing in the Sunshine. And, EVERY ski will ski those conditions superbly.

Oh, Max-yeah I did just do a search of ski advice, I apologize for my previous forum laziness, I did not realize you had already listed so many skis so often in the past. To bad about the movement Jam going over seas, sounded like a wonderful ski.

[Max_501]

And, Looking at Harald's evaluation of east coast snow vs. West coast makes the case that the east coast skier has an even greater need for a purpose built soft snow ski, as our 'powder' is wetter, and seasoned by variable weather events, and often located in hard to reach, narrow places.

In the end it comes down to developing PMTS skills.

[Mac]

[/quote]I have never skied at Whistler-Blackcomb either, but I imagine that's another powder capital.

Maybe if you hit it right. But they are cursed with the same problems we have here in New England, lower elevation and coastal weather patterns.

[jbotti]

Wow, I can't believe anyone is actually claiming that they get more snow in VT and Maine than at Bachelor or in places like Tahoe (or actually even comparing east coast snowfall to that of the Sierras or PNW). I'll be polite and not use the word moronic (damn I didn't mean to say that ).

Come on, let's have intelligent discussions!

Uh, I just got back to this thread and I wanted to respond. NO ONE Claimed the East gets more snow than Bachelor or Tahoe. Read my posts JB.

No, you didn't say but you sure implied it. That's OK, I forgive you. Everyone implies moronic things once in a while.

As for your focus on pow skis, as you can imply for Max's comment, the question for you to ask is how committed are you to mastering PMTS movements all over the mountain and in all conditions. If the answer is that you are very committed then you should listen to what Harald and others on this site say about rockered or as you say "purpose built" pow ski. The truth is that Max skis in some of the ugliest, thickest, gloopiest pow known to man often in terrible visibility and most days he will ski nothing fatter than the Head RNR. Many days he is on IM 78's. Because he has mastery over PMTS movements and a bullet proof short radius turn and he does not allow himself to get back on his skis, he has no problem in even the thickest of pow even when he is skiing ultra tight trees. As has been said many times on this site, if you go to a rockered ski, you will slow and or stop your progress in learning and mastering proper PMTS movements because rockered skis promote and often require pivoting.

The question is a simple one. If you are truly committed, get the RNR or one of the skis mentioned in this thread and many others that promote PMTS technique. If you aren't committed or just can't wait for your technique to match what you want to ski (which is true for many) then go for it and get something rockered that will enable you to pivot easily and many places where you might struggle on a traditionally cambered ski you will find much easier. As you technique progresses you may find that you end up selling all your rockered skis just as I did a few years back.

Most come to the site to find info on PMTS technique and gear that will support it. Discussing why you and or others may need rockered skis in tough conditions may confuse many that are looking for the pure PMTS approach. Hence the PMTS response will always be the same (and I am talking as a moderator now).

[Skiasaurus Rex]

JB,

1. I didn't Imply it-in fact, I overtly STATED THE OPPOSITE. That there are certain areas of the west that no where on the planet outside of Niseko can compete with for pow...but not EVERY area of the west, of course--Sun Valley would kill for Jay Peak snow. The only thing I implied, in fact openly stated was that we do get powder days in the east-not as many, not as blower, not as whatever, but they happen, frequently enough in some areas that it is worth entertaining a discussion about purpose built skis for these conditions.

2. Secondly, I wasn't the one who asked initially about powder oriented PMTS skis. I'm not really focused on pow skis at all outside of addressing questions posed by others in this thread and trying to get a handle on why others thought these suggestions were bad ones. When you guys weren't trying to slag me or where I ski--or where you think i ski, you actually explained what the design flaws were in regards to PMTS. Point Taken, and now I get it.

I get that technique is the key and I know great skiers rely on technique over tools in every condition. Never argued that either. I did supply a few ski models I enjoyed in certain conditions, but, now knowing the non-pmts nature of those skis I have refrained from suggested or offering any other gear thoughts, and will continue to do so. I am making no arguments that anyone NEEDS any type of ski in any condition. The open ended question of the OP--not me--was recommendations for powder skis for pow days and heli trips. I would assume any frequent poster here already knows that PMTS skill acquisition is the first order of business before this question can be truly addressed. But it wasn't a technique question about 'How to Ski Powder.' But a gear question, in the gear forum about powder skis.

If the question had been how to ski powder, I would have not said 'first, get a powder ski...', actually, I'd say nothing as that is a question solely for the blue level and up PMTS certs to answer and no one else on these threads.

HONESTLY, I think I'd rather hear, and would benefit from, a discussion on PMTS Powder Skiing technique more than a discussion on PMTS powder skis. And yes, because I might just get a chance to put that into practice one lucky morning in the east