Nordica Beast Geometry - PMTS suitable?

[nugget]

Greetings
I would appreciate opinions on the geometry of the Nordica Beast (10/12). HH commented some months ago that they (Skunkworks for example) do not stock this boot because of its geometry. It certainly appears to have more forward lean than the higher end Nordica boots but I am unclear as to whether it would be considered (in PMTS terms) either a 'rotary' or 'lateral' boot.
My need to know is due to the required purchase of a new boot for our upcoming ski season (we are in the deep south) and it was recommended by a local "bootfitter" when he saw my E/EE feet (that is pretty wide!). I did mention my concerns re its forward lean etc but this person felt that it could be modified and that, primarily, boot fit was of importance as opposed to geometry. Now whilst I agree with this in principle my limited experience with bootfitting (have previously purchased Nordica Easymove 12 in 2005 for my first skiing foray but now woefully inadequate) consists solely (no pun intended) of how it fits in the shop for about 5 mins followed by the construction of a reasonably rigid footbed for my flat feet (which are pretty functional after years of surfing, skateboarding and snowboarding) and NO on snow assessment.
I have skied around 50 days since 2005 and thanks to PMTS have experienced considerable gains.
Vertically challenged (5'6") and stocky (160lbs) I like to ski it all and would consider myself upper level int/advanced. Consequently, I was initially more interested in the Speedmachine 10 but the 'bootman' was not due to the flex, the last width and my weight (or lack of). Apart from the geometric concerns I am also wanting a boot that I will grow into and not out of in 1-2 seasons (anticipating 20-30 days per season).
Unfortunately, in NZ, our markets for ski gear are relatively small, expensive and often with only limited stock available (and this is distributor dependent also). This is coupled with the fact that the only PMTS Alignment/bootfitting available is in Australia (2000 kms away)
Head NZ have a shipment of boots arriving in June 07 (apparently the ship has broken down in Sth Africa) and this contributes to the limited availability.
You stateside PMTS skiers are very fortunate to have access to the camps and instruction (as well as alignment specialists etc) that we are virtually devoid of down under and that makes me envious. The books, dvd's and forums are absolute essentials to enable efficient and enjoyable skiing.
Whoops sorry for the long ramble and thanks in anticipation.

[Mac]

I'm no expert on the subject, but since no one else has jumped in here, I'll give you my two cents worth. I know that the Beast and the Speedmachine are higher volume boots than, say the Doberman series. I have tried them both on, and they are too wide for my medium width foot. I'm surprised that the boot tech that you were dealing with tried to steer you away from the Speedmachine 10 (I believe they also make a 12 and 14). They are quite roomy and sound like they would be a good one for you to look at. Performance boots tend to be on the narrower side, the Speedmachine seems to go against that trend. Also, the Head Edge series seems to be a better fit for wider feet, and would be a solid choice for a good intermediate to advanced skier. Harald would be able to give you the real lowdown on your options, but I think he is away at a camp around this time. Might be worth your while to call the shop and talk to Chris Brown. He put a friend of mine in a new pair of Nordicas at the beginning of this season, and he has been thrilled with them. Chris really knows his stuff when it comes to boots. Good luck.

[nugget]

Hi Mac, thanks for taking the time to reply. Via a process of elimination I am moving toward either Nordica or Head following suggestions from others (yourself included) and a perusal of almost all posts on the PMTS forum relating to boots. As I have a high volume flattish foot (around 104 mm) the boot last will have to be within that vicinity though I would move toward a narrower last if I could and maybe get the boot punched a little especially if I elect the Speedmachine (over the 'Beast'). My overriding motive is to obtain the best fitting lateral boot (within my budget = approx $700US) and given the available selection here in New Zealand.
That said, the Head range may have a last that is more suitable with minimal modification but unfortunately this seasons shipment is not yet available.
I respect the opinion of those involved with PMTS more than most and it is the methodology which for me is most logical and practical.
Thanks again
Nugget.

[Mac]

I'm thinking that the Speedmachine is right around that 104mm last size. If that's the way you are leaning, I might go with the 12 over the 10. I don't really know the difference between the Beast and Speedmachine, other than the Beast might have a lower cuff height. If Harald is not a fan of the Beast, than it is probably a ramp/forward lean/stance issue. But no one boot is right for everyone. Try them both on, walk around in the store for a while, and see if any pressure points develope. If either one forces you to walk in an unnaturally forward position, than they are probably not a good choice for you. Once you choose the one that feels the most natural for you, I would ski in them for a few days before I did any major shell modifications, even if it means putting up with some discomfort. A proper fitting boot should innitially feel like it is about half a size too small at first. Whatever you do, don't let them sell you a boot that is too big. I see this happen all the time, even though all these shops claim to have expert bootfitters. If they are too big to begin with, they are going to be way too big when they pack out. And there's no good way of fixing that. Also, I would be weary of having custom footbeds made, at least till you've skied in the boots for a few days, and only then if you can find a truly competent bootfitter, which is no easy task. All claim to be experts, in truth very few are. You would be far better off in a pair of quality stock footbeds that you can buy right off the shelf in most sporting goods stores that will mold in time to the bottom of your feet than you would be to have a pair of poorly designed (and expensive) custom footbeds made that may actually impede your progress. Harald says that very few of the custom footbeds that he sees come through his shop are properly designed, and many actually have a negative effect on the skiers ability to balance properly, which was the case with the ones that I previously had. That's not very encouraging to hear, especially after having spent a lot of money on something that had actually retarded my progress for years. Anyway, lots of luck, and let us know how you make out.

[Max_501]

Give Chris at the Skunkworks a call. He should be able to give you some good info that will help with your selection.

[Mac]

Max, what boots are you in now? I'm in a pair of the Head M103R's, about three years old. They are still good for another couple of seasons, but there are so many good boots out there now, I'm being tempted.

[Hacski]

My PMTS instructor got me into a pair of Nordica Beast 10s July last year. For my ability level he recommended against the 12s. I have a wide foot and for other makes their wide boot models seemed to achieve the width by a blanket increase in the size of the boot except for length, i.e. all seemed to have a cavern above my feet. Only the Beasts still felt snug (but not tight) across the top of the feet. As to the geometry, when fitting the HH footbeds my instructor removed the plastic strip jutting up from the top of the plastic shell at the back of the boot. An alignment check showed no appreciable problem. The boots were fine on snow. I understand that Nordica no longer make the Beast model having replaced it by the Speedmachine but the store still had plenty in stock and the boot fitter at the store (not the PMTS guys) told me the Speedmachine was not as suitable for my wide foot as the Beast. So I am happy.

[Max_501]

Max, what boots are you in now? I'm in a pair of the Head M103R's, about three years old. They are still good for another couple of seasons, but there are so many good boots out there now, I'm being tempted.

Nordica Doberman 130.

[nugget]

All opinions have been duly noted and much appreciated so many thanks to all. Hacski, the Beast is still being produced for 2007 but it does not hold poll position in the Nordica stable anymore (as an all mountain/freeride type of boot anyway). You're right about the instep height being lower (Beast vs Speedmachine) which is definitely more suitable anatomically for my foot/feet. Apparently the liners tend to pack out a fair amount. Did you have this problem with Beast 10? I am not sure how much difference there is between the 'precision fit' of the Beast 12 vs the 'comfort fit' of the 10. I do know that the Beast tends to run large by size so will really need expert fitting should I elect to head in that direction. The cuff size (thanks Mac) is lower than the Speedmachine which is proably more suited to my height. I certainly will need to hone my assertiveness skills when dealing with shop staff who know more than I about boots but who lack understanding of the tenents of PMTS. The combined input of the PMTS community has given me confidence to state what I need.

[Mac]

Max, Chris put a buddy of mine in a pair of the Doberman 130's at the beginning of the season, and he absolutely loves them. He has been skiing for twenty years, and has gone through about half a dozen pairs of boots, all of which were too big for him, and all of them were sold to him at reputable shops by "expert bootfitters," along with custom made footbeds that were totally wrong for his type of foot. Harald and Chris had a hard time convincing him that he needed a smaller shell size, and he was equally convinced that the Dobie was going to be too stiff. Boy is he glad he listened to them. He says that these properly fitting boots and footbeds have been nothing short of a revelation for him, along with some PMTS coaching. He is still in a state of disbelief that he struggled for all those years for nothing. You can lead them to the koolaid, but sometimes it's hard to get them to take that first sip!