ski recommendations for crud conditions

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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:24 am

lakespapa wrote:Check out Realskier on this — they like the Enforcer.


Have you seen these?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4989

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4519
Last edited by Max_501 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:02 am

lakespapa wrote:Directional in the sense that the ski rewards carving inputs, more tip to tail carving inputs, than it rewards the swively, twin-tippy, pivoty style preferred by many fat skis. Check out Realskier on this — they like the Enforcer.

I'm no expert PMTSer, but I know the ski is a medium flex and very definite on edge. It likes forward pressure, but carves well from the center, too. I avoid heel-pushing, so I can't speak to that, and inclination (sans angulation) isn't my style.

So is it a ski that will teach you how to ski? I can't say with any certainty.


I've spent some quality time on the Enforcer 93. While it holds an edge, it is not a ski that actually likes to carve. It hates forward pressure because there is literally no tip on the snow (see Jb's comments about the Kore... they apply here). The small contact surface makes the ski easy to pivot and nervous at speed. I can say with certainty that the Enforcer will not teach someone to ski well... In fact I'd wager it would be just the opposite.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby jbotti » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:38 am

Let's reiterate one more time that Realskiers is not a good source for reviews for skis for PMTS skiers. In fact it is a bad source as the testers are not PMTS skiers and they are using different movements (with lots of active rotary). Therefore they like skis that reward those movements. We like skis that reward the essentials and that make using them easier (or in some cases possible).
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby lakespapa » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:10 am

jbotti wrote:Let's reiterate one more time that Realskiers is not a good source for reviews for skis for PMTS skiers. In fact it is a bad source as the testers are not PMTS skiers and they are using different movements (with lots of active rotary). Therefore they like skis that reward those movements. We like skis that reward the essentials and that make using the easier (or in some cases possible).


Hm. Ok.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby jbotti » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:17 pm

NothingClever wrote:Let me zero in on the exact advice i'm looking for now... Max, Heluva, JBotti - what would you shortlist for an approx. 95-105mm ski for west coast powder/crud/chop? (specifically the Mammoth days where you have 2 fresh runs and then spend the rest of the day working the stashes and the tracked out dense chop)
Thanks!


Essentially you are asking what is the PMTS replacement for the head Rock N Roll. Its a great question. I have two pairs of RNR's and I have 2-3 years more life in them but ultimately I will need a replacement. I have the opportunity to demo a lot of skis at my home mountain. They carry the Dynastar Legend X 88 (which HSS carries) and they also carry the X 96 which appears to be somewhat similar in build and construction. But assuming that the next width up is essentially the same ski except wider is often a very big mistake and often they double the tip and tail rocker going from an 88mm waisted to a 105mm waisted ski (with the 95mm one in the middle). The guys in my shop think that the ski that replaces my RNR's is the Stockli Stormrider 95 and they like this years version which is a little stiffer than the past 2 years version.

I am back in Montana next week and if I get some time to demo them I will try all three skis.

For those that love Kastle skis this may be sacrilege but those MX series skis are not good PMTS off piste skis. They are too stiff. You might find if you had the Monster 88 (widely available cheap on ebay) which bends nicely on hard snow and has a great flex pattern for off piste skiing that you might not be looking for a 105mm ski for Mammoth. Just a thought.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby lakespapa » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:48 pm

HeluvaSkier wrote:
lakespapa wrote:Directional in the sense that the ski rewards carving inputs, more tip to tail carving inputs, than it rewards the swively, twin-tippy, pivoty style preferred by many fat skis. Check out Realskier on this — they like the Enforcer.

I'm no expert PMTSer, but I know the ski is a medium flex and very definite on edge. It likes forward pressure, but carves well from the center, too. I avoid heel-pushing, so I can't speak to that, and inclination (sans angulation) isn't my style.

So is it a ski that will teach you how to ski? I can't say with any certainty.


I've spent some quality time on the Enforcer 93. While it holds an edge, it is not a ski that actually likes to carve. It hates forward pressure because there is literally no tip on the snow (see Jb's comments about the Kore... they apply here). The small contact surface makes the ski easy to pivot and nervous at speed. I can say with certainty that the Enforcer will not teach someone to ski well... In fact I'd wager it would be just the opposite.


Interesting. You're a far, far better skier than I am, Greg, but I have no trouble making it carve. It's a short contact area, though, for sure. One thing I notice is that its width makes getting on edge about as obvious as you can imagine. It's like climbing a wall. You really know when you're up there. (I found the same thing going from a mid-70s under foot to mid-80s.) Granted, my 66s are quicker and a lot more fun.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby NothingClever » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:45 pm

jbotti wrote:
NothingClever wrote:Let me zero in on the exact advice i'm looking for now... Max, Heluva, JBotti - what would you shortlist for an approx. 95-105mm ski for west coast powder/crud/chop? (specifically the Mammoth days where you have 2 fresh runs and then spend the rest of the day working the stashes and the tracked out dense chop)
Thanks!


Essentially you are asking what is the PMTS replacement for the head Rock N Roll. Its a great question. I have two pairs of RNR's and I have 2-3 years more life in them but ultimately I will need a replacement. I have the opportunity to demo a lot of skis at my home mountain. They carry the Dynastar Legend X 88 (which HSS carries) and they also carry the X 96 which appears to be somewhat similar in build and construction. But assuming that the next width up is essentially the same ski except wider is often a very big mistake and often they double the tip and tail rocker going from an 88mm waisted to a 105mm waisted ski (with the 95mm one in the middle). The guys in my shop think that the ski that replaces my RNR's is the Stockli Stormrider 95 and they like this years version which is a little stiffer than the past 2 years version.

I am back in Montana next week and if I get some time to demo them I will try all three skis.

For those that love Kastle skis this may be sacrilege but those MX series skis are not good PMTS off piste skis. They are too stiff. You might find if you had the Monster 88 (widely available cheap on ebay) which bends nicely on hard snow and has a great flex pattern for off piste skiing that you might not be looking for a 105mm ski for Mammoth. Just a thought.



Agree with you on the MXs being too stiff for soft off-piste. I enjoy them a lot on the firmer all-mtn day. The Monster 88s sound like a great replacement for them in another 1-2 years. Will be super interested to hear your thoughts on the Stormriders (i should have a reasonable chance of buying the demos at the end of this season). Thanks
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby HeluvaSkier » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:15 pm

lakespapa wrote:
I have no trouble making it carve.


I said they dont default to carving, not that they or I were incapable of carving them. They LIKE to pivot.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:35 pm

lakespapa wrote:Interesting. You're a far, far better skier than I am, Greg, but I have no trouble making it carve.


Carving means different things to different skiers. We'd have to see video of you on them to see what you mean when you say you have no trouble making them carve. Generally speaking a ski that rewards rotary input is not a very good tool for the carving we strive for in PMTS, as Greg alludes to above.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:20 pm

NothingClever wrote:Agree with you on the MXs being too stiff for soft off-piste. I enjoy them a lot on the firmer all-mtn day.


Why ski an 88 waisted ski on firm surfaces?
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby jbotti » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:08 pm

Max_501 wrote:
lakespapa wrote:Interesting. You're a far, far better skier than I am, Greg, but I have no trouble making it carve.


Carving means different things to different skiers. We'd have to see video of you on them to see what you mean when you say you have no trouble making them carve. Generally speaking a ski that rewards rotary input is not a very good tool for the carving we strive for in PMTS, as Greg alludes to above.


Generally in PMTS what we mean by carving is tight edge locked carved arcs when the ski is bent into a tighter turn radius. This becomes nearly impossible when a ski has a ton of tip rocker. Skis like this are designed so that the tips will not engage. So when one pulls their feet back aggressively at the top of the turn and looks to tip the skis and add tip pressure at the same time, there is no platform. So carving by our terms is nearly impossible in a heavily tip rockered ski. Of course one can ride the side cut but for anyone that can bend a ski, that's just not very much fun. You are skiing the whole day with no ability to get any real performance out of the ski. Its even worse for the student that is trying to learn how to bend a ski. How does one bend a ski that can't be bent. Its kind of a big problem.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby joeag » Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:52 pm

Reviving this thread for a question:

I am on the SS Magnum in a 170, love the ski and believe in PMTS, always trying to get better.

I'm very happy with the SS Magnum on groomers, and in most conditions, I enjoy working on brushed carves and "real" carves as much as possible.

The last few trips have been in heavy snow, turning to crud, low visibility and fore/aft balance is really challenging. I can ski the SS Magnums in crud if I can see where the bumps are. I can ski fresh ok as well, but I feel like I'm going to dive into oblivion sometimes if I pressure the tips too much, but still can handle most of the time.

Last week was out at Squaw during the epic tahoe storm on March 16th. Heavy fresh snow, plenty of it, and extremely low visibility. Got tired of fighting for balance on the SS Magums, so demo'd a pair of Volkl RTM 86 (176 cm)

Much, much easier to have fun in the heavy stuff (with low visibility) because I felt the platform (increased width and also length of ski) was much more stable (fore/aft). Not making the same quality of turns but still felt pretty "PMTS"y in terms of early edge engagement, letting the ski/sidecut do the work, etc. Was actually a lot of fun.

To the point - contemplating a Dynastar Legend 88 (from the this year's ski thread by HH) and wondering how much longer than a SS most go for a mid-fat/crud/powder ski. As I said I like the SS Magnum at 170, choices in Dynastar L 88 are 173 or 180. I'm thinking 180. I liked the Volkl at 176. If it matters, I'm 6' 2", 225 and 55 y/o. (Made my first trek to HSS for custom fitted Raptors with Walker last year, finally!) I'm prioritising for stable platform in the mammoth/tahoe muck (I will continue to ski my SS Magnums on groomers and most days), but also like to keep as short a radius as possible. The turn radius is one of my favorite things about the SS Magnum.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice!
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby jbotti » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:21 am

Yes 180 would be the minimum length for you in that ski. They ski short with a good amount of tip Rocker.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby B.Mulligan » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:33 am

I'm a little surprised at the love the legend x88 gets here. It's a nice ski, but it's a got a lot of the post-cham long 5 point tip quirkiness that seems counter to skis most PMTSers here like. I only skied them 173, and I'm pretty average sized, 175lb 5'9. It's quick but kind of insubstantial on hard snow and jittery in deeper snow, compared to a lot of skis-most notably the Head Monster v83/88's others have recommended here. I have found those are better on firm and soft snow than this legend. I get it, Harald liked it so it must be a pretty darn great ski, but has anyone else here, especially green and blue certified instructors, spent time on the legend x88 and liked it as much? Just wondering.

My work takes me out to Seattle, often, and I get to ski Steven's Pass and Crystal a few times a season. For deep cruddy days there, I'm not sure something like the legend x88 would be my first choice. Maybe the legend x106. I'm assuming you're looking for a specialty ski for particularly onerous days at Mammoth and not a ski for drills and learning.

Personally, I like a ski with a little less side cut, and fairly stout construction, but not unbendable planks. : either metal, or a solid wood/ fiberglass lay up in deeper crud. I bought a slightly used Dynastar Slicer in a 181cm, that's been my throw it in a bag travel ski. Good even, medium flex, non-tapered tips and tails, no metal but slightly heavier, damper construction. I like it in the funky, deeper, and sometimes warmer wetter snow I hit in crystal and Stevens a few weeks ago.

Oh, and as for New England crud, well, this month, here in Southern New England, we've had our fair share of deep and dense. A Few Thursdays ago at Magic in the Gondiff skied some of the deepest snow I've seen anywhere. It's not the norm, sure, but it does happen once in a while.

Final thought, it does make sense to think about adding a crud ski over a 'powder ski' as almost every ski does well in unbroken powder, whereas crud is the soft snow condition that most challenges skier and ski alike.
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Re: ski recommendations for crud conditions

Postby joeag » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:42 pm

Thank you for the input as to length and overall views on the Dynastar Legend X88.

If I were to look for some Monster 88's what's the latest year they were still "good" (I think that it was mentioned in another thread that the flex has been getting softened up over the years?) - 2016? 2017?

Since there's no or minimal reverse rocker on these would a 177 cm be equivalent to the Dynaster in a 180? (My everyday ski is the SS Magnum in 170, I love it).

Yes, I am focused on Mammoth (1) and Tahoe (2) and intended use is later day/next day tracked out, bumped out, etc. (or in the middle of serious stormage/dumpage where snow is heavy and visibility is poor). My SS Magnum's are pretty great in everything else with my technique level right now. I'd love to be on the SS Magnum's all the time, but the fore/aft balance is tricky enough in the conditions outlined above that I just don't enjoy myself all that much on an all day session.

Thanks again!

As a PS - I read the "blossom white out" thread and was very interested in a ski with that waist (high 70's) but I don't think it will make enough of a difference in the "crud" conditions I'm looking at, but I could be wrong. I did demo some Volkl RTM 86 in a 177 and it was super easy to handle the heavy tahoe stuff in the last big storm in mid-March so that's what is motivating my search.
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