Carvers MA

Re: Carvers MA

Postby h.harb » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:26 pm

https://harbskisysems.blogspot.com/2020/07/httpsyoutu.html




I used my old yellow Head boots that I set up slightly more tipped in for Carvers. Click on the first link to my Blog for photos and descriptions.
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby h.harb » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:58 pm

Why do Harb Carvers work? This is not a skate or rollerblade that have the thin blade or wheels down the center under the foot. Skis don't have a center blade, skis have edges on either side which makes for a different dynamic. The biomechanics involved in tipping Harb Carvers is different from skates, skates fall over on their own. Harb Carvers and skis (if you want to carve turns) need to be tipped or lifted on one side and ridden on the other edge through a turn. This requires different skills. Also, you cannot twist, steer, or rotate your legs to make Harb Carvers work. The engagement action required for Carvers to arc and make a turn has to begin with the feet. The feeling is just like carving a clean arc on hard snow. Movements have to begin with the feet and ankles. We did years of testing with all types of skiers from World Cup racers, ski instructors to intermediates. The limitations of each individual's technique became immediately obvious on Harb Carvers. Some instructors were so frustrated they said the Carvers didn't work. I just had to sit back and watch as their frustration took them over. Carvers prove one thing, you either have carving ability or you twist/steer on snow, but you can't do the later on Carvers. If you are looking to take the real test about your skiing, try some Carvers. If you master them at some level you will surely improve your on-snow skiing capabilities. Skiing and ski instruction have many myths and false understandings, many are perpetrated by misconceptions in National teaching systems. One outing on Harb Carvers and you will discover if you are engaging a ski or twisting a ski. Even the slightest twisting action will bring tears to your eyes. There is no hiding from your movements on this tool they expose everything.
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby h.harb » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:21 pm

PSIA will never understand Harb Carvers because they are afraid to learn by getting on them. Sunken cost fallacy. The second they acknowledge they can't carve, or balance on Carvers they have to admit they were wrong about skiing all along. The longer they stay that way, the longer they have to admit they were wrong, so they just...won’t change.
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby RyanAllen » Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:21 pm

h.harb wrote:PSIA will never understand Harb Carvers because they are afraid to learn by getting on them. Sunken cost fallacy. The second they acknowledge they can't carve, or balance on Carvers they have to admit they were wrong about skiing all along. The longer they stay that way, the longer they have to admit they were wrong, so they just...won’t change.


Here's proof to your point - not that any was really needed.



And, bare hands, elbows, knees. Road rash would be the least of his concerns!
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby noobSkier » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:10 am

At least that up-move is consistent across all surfaces :lol:
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby RyanAllen » Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:25 am

I've had my hands full lately with my sporting pursuits. After about 4 weeks of my new fitness routine - less cycling more strength & plyo - I began having discomfort in one of my knees. I got right in to see a therapist and my issues were (painfully) obvious, also not surprising after 10 years of competitive cycling. My outer quads and IT bands are super tight, and my glut. medius' are weak and inflamed. We got after it and with just a single day of intense, painful therapy I'm feeling stronger. Goal is to have bullet proof knees and doing plyo a few times a week late summer and fall, and back on the SS mtb.

As for the carvers and skiing, addressing my physical issues should have a direct benefit. Those same glute muscles are definitely working to counterbalance. In the video below, I'm working on incorporating the great feedback I've gotten - transferring to my stance carver, mixing up my turns, and eliminating the double pole drag. Now, when I hear a pole dragging, it tells me I probably need more counter balancing. Unfortunately, what I'm not doing well is counterbalancing more with my hips (have been doing indoor hip-o-meters, more needed, but feel it's dangerous to do them carving). Right hand also stays high while left hand drops. Tipping angles weren't quite as strong but that was not my focus this time. I can also see a push creep back into my turns when I pick up the tempo - fudge! It was very warm and humid. I only had enough juice for about 30 minutes - avg HR of 151bpm and a max of 174bpm on the climbs. Let me know what you think!

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Re: Carvers MA

Postby RyanAllen » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:17 pm

Need to work on the camera aim, but I believe this might be the best venue I've ever seen! Asphalt so new you weren't allowed to even park on it! Smooth like powder sking. Probably about a 3% grade which took some pressure off from speed control so I upped the tempo, imagining myself clearing a flush of slalom gates. Ditched the double pole drag too.

Hope everyone is having a good summer.

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Re: Carvers MA

Postby noobSkier » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:33 pm

:o Man, your carvers progress is extraordinary...it will be fun to watch your progress on snow.
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby RyanAllen » Sun Aug 09, 2020 9:06 am

noobSkier wrote::o Man, your carvers progress is extraordinary...it will be fun to watch your progress on snow.


Yeah, I could almost kill to get on the snow at this point. Half tempted to fly out to Mt. Hood.

Here's a video of my carver drills from this morning. I've done the "LTE Hang-time" drill with better flexing before, but I'll tell you the balance transfer that one seems to unlock really helps with free foot work. i.e., pull back, tipping, flexing. I think it also makes Harb carving feel more like skiing.

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Re: Carvers MA

Postby h.harb » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:40 pm

OK, Ryan, looking back at some of your work on previous pages. Your stance width is much better, your alignment is much improved well done. Excellent!

As far as your question about wheels we experimented for months with different durometer wheels from different companies. The big wheels have less choice and are more expensive. Rollerblade wheels are cheap, but if you can find some of the companies that make the competition wheels they will be of higher quality. Don't go with too hard a compound they tend to skid or slip too easily. Of course, the softer wheels don't last as long but get grip better. So you have to find the happy medium. One of the things I did on my Carver runs is not to tighten the boots too much. Snug, yes but I never tightened them as much as I did for snow skiing. You can experiment with this it will help your fore/aft balance as well. OK, too tight limits the angle development.
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby ErikCO » Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:14 am

h.harb wrote:Don't go with too hard a compound they tend to skid or slip too easily. Of course, the softer wheels don't last as long but get grip better. So you have to find the happy medium.


My experience, at least from doing standard inline skating is that wheels with an 82-84a durometer rating are about right for asphalt or rough concrete. Concrete with a smooth finish will probably do better with 80. I've tried wheels that are a 78, and while their grip is amazing, the wear really fast. I tended to find that the 88-92 hardness wheels did not grip well for any sharp turns. Also a lot of the wheels in this hardness category have a square profile (for trick skaters) not a rounded profile as you would want either for Carvers or for non-trick inline skating.
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby h.harb » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:17 pm

I've tried some 92 wheels on our Comp model on steep pavement, felt like I was skiing on ice without edges.
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby ErikCO » Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:54 pm

I can only imagine how hard that must have been Harald! I've tried some indoor artistic inline skating on 96 wheels (for artistic skating you typically use harder wheels as they will generally roll for longer on a flat indoor surface) and I felt I was going to fall on every turn! Skiing on ice without edges is about right! I don't have a set of carvers, but for my recreational inlines on a steep paved surface, you aren't going to find me going for much over an 85 hardness wheel! I'd imagine that, for the Carvers, the sweet spot would probably be 80mm wheels in the 82-85 hardness range.

https://www.inlinewarehouse.com/Rollerblade_RB_Inline_Skate_Wheels/descpage-RBFW19.html

https://www.inlinewarehouse.com/Rollerblade_Supreme_Urban_Wheels/descpage-0684.html

Those are probably the type of wheels I'd use (note, these are not any type of affiliate links, just some suggestions of types of wheels for folks looking for them). With proper wheel rotation, which you should be doing probably after every session, you should be able to make a set of wheels last for easily 10+ sessions. A set of wheels costs less than a half day lift ticket, so I don't think it is unreasonable to go with slightly softer wheels (falls on asphalt due to wheels loosing traction are very painful) that wear out a bit faster.
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby RyanAllen » Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:51 am

ErikCO wrote:I'd imagine that, for the Carvers, the sweet spot would probably be 80mm wheels in the 82-85 hardness range.


Increasingly, I think you're right about that. There is probably some personal preference, and the grade you're on matters too. The orange wheels I've been using for the past month are Players Choice 80mm with a hardness rating of 89. The hardness is clearly on the high side, but I tried them anyway based on very favorable reviews, and the fact that I've been sheering off the sides of softer wheels in just a single session or two. For the most part, they have lived up to their reputation for quality and durability. Because of the hardness though, they definitely roll faster, so speed control seems more difficult. Lately I've been avoiding any grade steeper than 3-4% where the 89's would get a bit sketchy.

The Rollerblade wheels from your link are actually excellent in my opinion! I was on them for the first 2 months of my carver journey. They held up well until I began exploring more aggressive angles. A single hard session on steeper grade will sheer off the sides of the front and rear wheels, in my experience. But, you pay to play! I'd get them again when I can order precisely 12 of them. It has been difficult finding the correct order quantity in stock.

I am going to order a set of 12 Labeda Asphalt Grippers (85a) from Rollerbob next. Hands down best pricing I can find. Thank you for chiming in with your experiences!!
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Re: Carvers MA

Postby h.harb » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:56 am

We ended up working with Labeda after trying many companies, best pricing, and good quality. They even tried to make special wheels for us. I would also change or use different wheels for the steepness of your road and age of pavement you are carving on. New pavement is super grippy, so you can go with an 85 wheel. On older pavement or cement go with 80 or 82 wheels.
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