Washing out tails and TFR

Washing out tails and TFR

Postby skiffie » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:33 pm

I've been having a few problems with TFRs and a friend pointed out my turn entry is smooth but that I wash out my tails halfway through the turn and end up going at a right angle across the hill. This matches my feeling that the start is fine but then I get thigh burn halfway through the turn while trying to angulate. When doing OFRs and/or phantoms (doing the entire turn arc on one foot) the thigh pain goes away and the tails stop washing out. I'm not sure how to fix this - advice appreciated!

I've tracked down a video and took some screenshots (with my commentary :P) The hill was rather icy that day and my skis are a tad wider so I remember slipping a bit, which might be part of the problem since I'm not angulating hard. It may be a different type of washout that happens when there is no ice, but it's there.

Generally I know I need to get further forward and also there's too much space between my skis. I've managed to improve some of that since then. But you will also notice I have no idea what to do with my arms!

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going through one turn. this seems ok-ish, still needs fine tuning.

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waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much space between skis lol

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Here is the problem! In the last pic I was on edges, but now I have washed out my tails and am going across the hill. Also wrote that wrong - by 'twist' I mean CA.

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Here's a turn. Need to pull the foot back and in. But at least there's some tipping happening!

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here going into the turn...

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washout in progress!

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And somehow I have gone from skiing to looking like I'm about to tackle hug someone! what do I do with my arms?

Any thoughts would be super helpful! Thank you :)
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Re: Washing out tails and TFR

Postby noobSkier » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:19 pm

Hi skiffie,

I love your enthusiasm but unfortunately these screenshots are useless. When we do MA we try to identify mistakes and offer a solution...sometimes its tricky even with perfect video. If you want a quality analysis and a road to improvement, consider posting the video in it's entirety.
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Re: Washing out tails and TFR

Postby Ken » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:07 pm

This video is the Two Footed Release. Note that it is the release only, not the whole turn. In this video, what makes Harald's skis turn? At first it is gravity, then it is tipping and more tipping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPM7gwZ ... tml5=False

For the whole turn:
-Thigh burn usually means that your skis are in front of you instead of under you, but we need video
-Way too much weight on the inside ski during the turn. Lighten it, then bring it closer, back, and tip, tip, tip.
-The tail washout probably is due to too steep a slope at this stage of your development. You're falling back on old bad habits for speed control. On a suitable slope, do the PMTS movements and allow the turn to develop. Let the turn come to you. You can't force it and get it right. On that suitable slope allow your up-on-edge skis to pass through the straight-down-the-fall line spot while you are being patient. Make the PMTS movements immediately after the release, tip and tip more, and allow the turn to happen, and tip more. Patiently allow the turn to happen.
-Don't let your arm position be a distraction. Nor the counter acting. Get the feet moving correctly first. All good skiing starts with the feet. When the feet are doing pretty well, amplify their action with correct upper body movements. For now just relax your arms. Let them come in a bit, but don't worry at this point. Relax your back also--that nice posture concave curved spine is kind'a locking out other movements.
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VIDEO OF NOT ME
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Re: Washing out tails and TFR

Postby skiffie » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:33 pm

noobSkier wrote:Hi skiffie,

I love your enthusiasm but unfortunately these screenshots are useless. When we do MA we try to identify mistakes and offer a solution...sometimes its tricky even with perfect video. If you want a quality analysis and a road to improvement, consider posting the video in it's entirety.


Ha, ok! Sorry, didn't realize. The video is pretty useless and only has one turn that you can really see, plus I've gotten a bit better at some of these now, so I will get a better video and post it.

Ken wrote:-Way too much weight on the inside ski during the turn. Lighten it, then bring it closer, back, and tip, tip, tip.


I totally missed this. great pickup - thank you!

-The tail washout probably is due to too steep a slope at this stage of your development. You're falling back on old bad habits for speed control. On a suitable slope, do the PMTS movements and allow the turn to develop. Let the turn come to you. You can't force it and get it right. On that suitable slope allow your up-on-edge skis to pass through the straight-down-the-fall line spot while you are being patient. Make the PMTS movements immediately after the release, tip and tip more, and allow the turn to happen, and tip more. Patiently allow the turn to happen.


thanks. This slope was probably too steep, but the tail washout was happening even on green slopes, so I was doing something wrong. They seem to happen especially when I try to angulate. I'm a bit confused by what you mean by having your skis on edge passing through the fall line - wouldn't they have already been tipped to be in 'upside-down skiing'?

I guess I thought I would never learn to ski a blue slope properly if I didn't practice on one, but maybe the trick is to nail it on greens first and then restart on blues. :)

-Don't let your arm position be a distraction. Nor the counter acting. Get the feet moving correctly first. All good skiing starts with the feet. When the feet are doing pretty well, amplify their action with correct upper body movements. For now just relax your arms. Let them come in a bit, but don't worry at this point. Relax your back also--that nice posture concave curved spine is kind'a locking out other movements.


super useful, thanks!
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Re: Washing out tails and TFR

Postby DougD » Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:32 pm

skiffie wrote:I guess I thought I would never learn to ski a blue slope properly if I didn't practice on one, but maybe the trick is to nail it on greens first and then restart on blues. :)

This is correct. You'll never learn to ski a blue slope properly by skiing on blue slopes. You must build efficient movements first.

I'm comfortable skiing blacks and double blacks at the toughest mountains. But it's almost impossible for me to learn new movements on anything but an easy green. Terrain challenges, however slight, invoke old muscle memories and that kills any chance of executing a new movement reliably.

Muscle memory is built by movement repetitions, accurately performed. I spend multiple full ski days practicing each new PMTS movement (like the TFR) on the easiest slopes I can find before taking it up even one notch.

Otherwise... what Ken said.
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Re: Washing out tails and TFR

Postby skiffie » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:08 am

No video yet as there's been a whiteout. But I realized I'm picking up a LOT of speed. I found one of Harald's old posts that says this:

A brushed carve is, rather then having just your big toe on the out side ski engaged early and holding, don't tip so quickly to such a high ski angle, go for instead, a big toe, second, and third toe angle. This means feel the ski more flat with more toes on the ball of the foot holding pressure to the snow in the high C.

Everything else must be the same, release and counter balancing. This less aggressive angle (with the three toe hold, allows the ski to engage but not run forward as quickly. A high edge with pressure will make a ski accelerate forward. With a brushed arc the ski changes direction and produces an arc with a slight brushing, you have more time to get forward and stay in a more flexed lower position.


This might be (another) problem - I've been trying to make perfectly rounded turns edge to edge, but that makes me go REALLY FAST even on greens. So if I understand correctly the three toe hold will still be on edge, just flatter, and it will let the skis push some of the snow away instead of just riding on edge? I should still be bent/flexing, but less extreme angulation (?)
Last edited by skiffie on Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Washing out tails and TFR

Postby DougD » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:23 am

skiffie wrote:So if I understand correctly the three toe hold will still be on edge, just flatter, and it will let the skis push some of the snow away instead of just riding on edge? I should still be bent/flexing, but less extreme angulation (?)

Skiffie,

Less extreme angulation is not what Ken described. Read this Classic Thread: http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1624

Post #6 from jbotti includes a long re-post from Jay (SkierSynergy), a Black Level PMTS coach. He describes the brushed carve in detail, including exactly what should be tipping less, what should be tipping more and when to do it. Read that re-post very carefully... it's gold.
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Re: Washing out tails and TFR

Postby skiffie » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:59 pm

DougD wrote:
skiffie wrote:So if I understand correctly the three toe hold will still be on edge, just flatter, and it will let the skis push some of the snow away instead of just riding on edge? I should still be bent/flexing, but less extreme angulation (?)

Skiffie,

Less extreme angulation is not what Ken described. Read this Classic Thread: http://www.pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1624

Post #6 from jbotti includes a long re-post from Jay (SkierSynergy), a Black Level PMTS coach. He describes the brushed carve in detail, including exactly what should be tipping less, what should be tipping more and when to do it. Read that re-post very carefully... it's gold.


Great, thank you very much for the link. To clarify, I wasn't referring to what Ken described... just trying to understand the post that I quoted, which seemed to imply less extreme angulation with the brushed carve because the edge angle isn't as high (you are on three toes instead of one and HH says less angle). Please correct me if I've misunderstood this.

If Jay is the same Jay then he was actually my coach at camp and taught me some fundamentals of the brushed carve but we didn't have time to go into lots of detail :D
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Re: Washing out tails and TFR

Postby skiffie » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:08 am

I managed (I think) to eliminate the tail washout by doing phantoms before switching back to TFRs. Today my skis were springing me from turn to turn which was awesome and my legs felt super light, no thigh burn!

I also got Diana's brushed carve video which made a lot more sense. But just to confirm I understand correctly...

1) OFR = (super) phantom move = weight on new stance ski on LTE, free foot tips, stance ski rolls around.
2) TFR = weight a little more split, weight transfer not so dramatic to uphill (new stance) ski, free foot tips, weight transfer as both skis go through fall line (float), free foot tips more, stance ski rolls around

And:
1) Edge locked carves: early edge lock, transition from edge to edge, high angles
2) Brushed carve: less aggressive angle (as per HH), created by holding new stance ski on LTE while the free foot tips

So:
- with an OFR and a brushed carve you would have all the weight on the new stance ski which hangs on the LTE - so both skis are tipped to LTE at the same time
- in the TFR with a brushed carve the new stance ski would still be tipped to the LTE, but less so (?) and both skis go through the float.

However... in the video Diana says you control the angle of the stance ski through rolling the ankle, but as far as I understand you never actively roll the stance ski, you tip the free ski and let the stance ski follow. So you control the amount of brush by controlling how quickly you stop hanging on to the LTE edge of the new stance ski?

And how do you angulate with a brushed carve or is that what Harald meant by less extreme angles with a brush (because angulating helps you get on your edges)?

And for those people with even a little steering and/or rotation still left in their skiing, an emphasis on flattening and drifting can just cause bigger problems ?


this happened to me lol. I suddenly developed a push on my tails at the end of the arc which had never been there before. Took a day to get rid of it.
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