MA request

MA request

Postby bmoose21 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:30 pm

Hey, sorry this is not a good video (at night, gopro, rear view), but I'm having a hard time getting any video of my skiing. At times I will feel like I'm getting better angles and more completed turns... I have some ideas why but would appreciate any feedback.

Last edited by bmoose21 on Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MA request

Postby willwingpang » Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:52 pm

Hi bm21

The first thing I saw was a lot of hip dumping which was causing a huge push on the stance ski (outside ski) and extensions in between turns, I couldnt see any tipping to initiate turns or bending of the legs in the transition. I am going to use the stand PMTS MA guidelines that both you and I. This is what I see and think. Hope it is helpful to you.

Is the stance width appropriate for the size of the skier? Yes
Does the release start by flexing the outside leg? No, outside leg extended
Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn? No, new turn was initiated by outside ski
Are the feet pulled back at transition? Going to say yes because at no point were you in the backseat
Is the inside foot held back throughout the turn? No, inside ski was shooting forward throughout the turn
Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right? I see some CB on the stance ski, although I didnt see any CA of the hips and torso
Is the pelvis included in the CB/CA movement? No
Strong inside arm? Yes
Is the inside leg flexed as the turn progresses? Yes
Does the outside leg extend naturally (no pushing) as the turn progresses? No
Does LTE tipping of the inside foot continue throughout the turn? No
Is the skier balanced over the outside ski? No, more CB needs to be done
Is there a pole touch and how is the movement and timing? Happens at extension between turns
Alignment - watch the skis and knees carefully - does anything look like it needs to be tipped in or out? Nothing that I can see for now

SMIM Single most important movement to learn - Tipping of the inside foot
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Re: MA request

Postby DougD » Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:18 pm

This is not PMTS skiing.

Go to Book 1, Page 1. Do every exercise in order until you've mastered it. Adopting PMTS in bits and pieces while skiing at speed doesn't work.

*** EDIT ***

My initial post was technically correct, but may not have included enough information to seem helpful (although it said everything strictly necessary). Here's Max_501's MA checklist applied to this video...

Is the stance width appropriate for the size of the skier? No. The feet are glued together but there is littlt independent leg action.
Does the release start by flexing the outside leg? No. Turns are inititiated with an inside lean of the upper body.
Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn? No. Engagement comes late in the turn with a push to an edgeset.
Are the feet pulled back at transition? No. The old free foot has scooted forward at every transition. Stop the video at :18, :20, :23, :26, :28 and :31...
same thing every turn.

Is the inside foot held back throughout the turn? No, inside ski was shooting forward throughout the turn (agree with willwingpang)
Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right? No. The upper body leans inside (no CB) and follows the skis (no CA)
Is the pelvis included in the CB/CA movement? N/A. There is no CA or CB.
Strong inside arm? No. On most turns the pole plant jerks the inside arm backward until the hand is at or behind the hip. Stop the video at :19, :27:, :31, :39-40, :41, :44...
Is the inside leg flexed as the turn progresses? No, the legs remain about equally flexed throughout the turn. This is typical of heel-pushing
Does the outside leg extend naturally (no pushing) as the turn progresses? No. Lots of pushing
Does LTE tipping of the inside foot continue throughout the turn? No. There's not much tipping at any point in these turns.
Is the skier balanced over the outside ski? There's no evidence of one-footed balance. The final turn in the video shows a stumble caused by a leaned-on inside ski.
Is there a pole touch and how is the movement and timing? No. There's an overly aggressive pole jab or plant, which triggers other unwanted movements.
Alignment - watch the skis and knees carefully - does anything look like it needs to be tipped in or out? Nothing obvious to my (non-expert) eyes. But this skiing is too fast and the turns too uncompleted to be sure.

As there's little evidence of any PMTS-inspired movements, my original advice remains.
Last edited by DougD on Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: MA request

Postby bmoose21 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:10 pm

Thanks willwingpang, very helpful and in line with what I was thinking. Clearly a lot of extension here, which I seem to go back to when it gets icy or steep ... fighting 25+ years of that.
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Re: MA request

Postby noobSkier » Mon Jan 08, 2018 11:19 pm

Hi bmoose21,

I like your narrow stance...this alone puts you ahead of most skiers and gives you the best chance at learning the most important essential: tipping. There is no use free skiing until tipping has been mastered because its truly the foundation of your skiing. Tipping is created by inversion of the free-foot ankle, so you need to be drilling the super phantom and practicing inversion of the free-foot at very low speeds.
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Re: MA request

Postby bmoose21 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:12 pm

Thanks for the feedback. DougD, I don't agree with every point but I get the idea--thanks for the additional info.
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Re: MA request

Postby Hobbit » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:57 pm

Since the OP removed the video I am going to delete this whole thread shortly.
The comments make no longer any sense after the video was removed.

I think we should implement this as a policy: no video -- no MA.

Thanks!
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Re: MA request

Postby bmoose21 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:30 pm

No problem, go ahead and delete this.
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Re: MA request

Postby noobSkier » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:40 pm

bmoose21 wrote:No problem, go ahead and delete this.


bmoose21,

I would strongly encourage you not to give up on MA. This forum is an incredible resource for improving skiing of all levels and you were given accurate advice. Let go of any illusion you may have of your own skiing, and just start over with the with the mindset that you have never skied a day in your life. Improvement is possible if you don't get in its way!
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Re: MA request

Postby Hobbit » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:16 pm

Nothing personal, I just think that Forum is a community and MA is not for the benefit of the OP only. Other people trying to help but also trying to learn how to do MA. Think about the readers who would be trying later to understand the context of such "orphaned" thread without the source available. I think it's just a common courtesy to keep the video available.
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Re: MA request

Postby DougD » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:04 pm

Hobbit, thanks for your attention. I think we'd all agree that an MA discussion without the original source video no longer has much use.

That said...

Like noobSkier I encourage bmoose21 to please re-post his video. Having one's skiing dissected may feel painful or embarrassing, but that is not the intent. The intent is to expose ineffective movements. This may feel uncomfortable - especially if those movements have been buttressed by years of inaccurate "feelings" about one's skiing. That feeling of discomfort is the first sign that learning may happen.

Every person who's been to a PMTS camp (myself included) has felt their skiing being torn to pieces. That's because none of us is a World Cup caliber skier with a command of effective movements. Yet PMTS gives us the path to achieve those movements, limited only by our willingness to accept the challenge and do the work.
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Re: MA request

Postby LiquidFeet » Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:30 pm

Criticism can be done without concern for the receiver; cold, harsh MA delivered this way should not be expected to be received well. Or, the person doing the MA can be tactful while delivering potentially painful observations. There are different ways of being tactful, if one cares about how the information is received.

Bluntly pointing out the important things a person is not doing is different from identifying what important things they should be doing. In both cases, the information is the same. Packaging counts.
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Re: MA request

Postby bmoose21 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:05 pm

Not giving up on MA -- Frankly I didn't want to leave the video up on youtube indefinitely under a youtube account with my actual name-- I should at least have the sense to post to youtube anonymously like everyone else here ;) I'm finding it tough to get videos of myself when skiing alone however. As I was telling Harald today when I ran into him at A-Basin, I really do want to get to a camp where I can get direct feedback.
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Re: MA request

Postby Max_501 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:57 pm

LiquidFeet wrote:Packaging counts.


Perhaps when you are paying for MA, but when you are getting free MA on the internet the packaging is less important.

Worth noting that this forum is for learning/teaching MA as well as receiving it.
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Re: MA request

Postby DougD » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:30 pm

LiquidFeet wrote:Bluntly pointing out the important things a person is not doing is different from identifying what important things they should be doing. In both cases, the information is the same.

The information is not the same. An MA involves two, distinct steps.

Step 1 is DESCRIPTIVE: identify the actual movements the student is currently making. Max_501's checklist is useful. Sugarcoating ineffective movements risks being misinterpreted by the student as readiness to jump ahead to more advanced movements. This is known to be ineffective. PMTS is best learned by developing the Primary Movements in the order presented by HH.

Step 2 is PRESCRIPTIVE: identify the SMIM, the single most important movement the skier should be working on given their present stage of development. This requires identifying the most basic PMTS movement that the student is NOT using (ie, from Step 1). If Step 1 has been presented with an optimistic gloss, Step 2 will necessarily be inaccurate or, if accurate, will not make sense to the student.

Whether one is receiving MA or learning how to provide it, accuracy and completeness have value.
Last edited by DougD on Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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