MA for oggy

Re: MA for oggy

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:06 am

DougD wrote:Your shoulders are countered to the same degree, which is how Harald looks in the photo Max posted.


If you are referring to this photo its a shot of me skiing wind buffed snow from this old thread...Off Piste Skiing

Image
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: MA for oggy

Postby DougD » Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:20 am

Sorry Max... sort of. All you PMTS coaches look alike to me (when skiing anyway). :mrgreen:
DougD
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:22 am
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:51 am

Hi all,

thanks again for the comments, much appreciated. I manged to get a few days of skiing in since the last video. I have drilled with angry mothers, outside boot touch and outside hip press drill (I forget the exact name, it's from the CB section of the Essentials book which I don't have on hand at the moment), no swing pole plants, and also focused on the upper body in my free skiing. A video is below. The slope is steeper than in the previous video, and the snow is fairly wet and heavy.



While still not super consistent, and with right footers still visibly worse, I believe that the upper body shows some improvement:

  • CB seems better and there appears to be less weight on the inside ski at the end of the turn.
  • CA also seems better. There's less of it at the apex, but more towards the end of the turn, and it also seems held through release.
  • the inside hand seems better, and the shoulders seem more level.

However, that's where the list of improvements stops. Overall, the skiing shows more skidding than before, and the angles are not as good, and the edge sets seem harder. Here's a video of a particularly bad transition:



The tails seem to displace almost 90 degrees while the ski is flat. While the turns are quite short this seems like way too much. I'm not sure what's the cause. It's obvious that I'm flexing less than in the previous video, and this must have an impact, but I'm still unsure if this is all there is to it. I don't really see an extension. Is it just that my (attempt at) tipping induces steering? Would the edge hop/target tipping drills be the best thing to correct this? Insufficient foot pullback has been suggested by Doug and another skier. I tried focusing on this during the freeski runs, but it didn't seem to help (although I didn't validate with video). Should I work more on this?

@Bob_Y: I believe that Harald's teaching of CA timing has changed since the Essentials book, and he now advocates holding the CA through the release, instead of being neutral as the skis are flat. You're probably right that I'm trying too hard - it takes me a lot of effort, trying to move my limbs to where I want them to be :) I think you're also right, in that my body often does not move into the turn smoothly, as evident in the transition above. Do you have suggestions for particular movements I could focus on, that would enable this?
oggy
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:21 am
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: MA for oggy

Postby noobSkier » Sun Mar 26, 2017 5:47 am

I have no comments for MA, but I just want to say that the skiing in your last video looks VERY nice! Are you self-taught PMTS?
User avatar
noobSkier
 
Posts: 355
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:35 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: MA for oggy

Postby milesb » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:07 pm

You aren't doing anything wrong, there is strong steering effect from tipping the inside ski that much. If you want less skidding, you need to tip the stance ski more and earlier. This will mean you also have to flex, cb, and ca more. It's a continuum, so you can work on it gradually.
YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH78E6wIKnq3Fg0eUf2MFng
User avatar
milesb
 
Posts: 977
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 10:17 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: MA for oggy

Postby DougD » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:54 pm

oggy wrote:The tails seem to displace almost 90 degrees while the ski is flat. While the turns are quite short this seems like way too much. I'm not sure what's the cause. It's obvious that I'm flexing less than in the previous video, and this must have an impact, but I'm still unsure if this is all there is to it. I don't really see an extension. Is it just that my (attempt at) tipping induces steering? Would the edge hop/target tipping drills be the best thing to correct this?

What milesb said.

Paradoxically, a good way to learn this would be to go back to the Super Phantom drills and exaggerate the length of time you spend on the LTE of the new stance foot. Transition as normal (flex the old stance leg and begin inside foot management with touch & tilt), but hold your traverse on the LTE for a long, slow count. Ski along on the LTE in your O-frame, but don't let the stance ski begin tipping until YOU want to commence the turn.

Toddw had me doing this drill and traversing on the LTE for a count of 1 hippopotamus, 2 hippopotamus, 3 hippopotamus before letting the stance ski roll off its LTE to commence the turn. Once you're doing this reliably, on both sides, you can back off the count to 2 hippopotami. Then 1. Then (and only then) zero.

Do this gradually. Confirm at each stage with video that you're not reverting to the overly swingy skis we see now. Trying to rush or jump from 3 hippos to none will revert to old movements.

This will help you learn fine, analog control of your stance ski tipping.
DougD
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:22 am
Location: Connecticut, USA

Re: MA for oggy

Postby Max_501 » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:04 pm

The main issue I see is the late hip CA at the end of the turn which causes two problems:

1 - the outside leg lengthens (when it should be flexing) causing a hard to control hit - easier to see on the left footers (left foot is the stance foot). Check the 2nd turn for an example.

2 - the late CA causes rotation of the lower body into the new turn.

CA should be progressive, starting from the point that the skis are on the new edges. If its added all at once at the end of the turn it is rotation.
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4044
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:39 pm

Thanks for all the replies again, much appreciated! Hopefully I can get a few more days in on the Austrian and Swiss glaciers in the coming weeks and put the comments to good use.

Max_501 wrote:the outside leg lengthens (when it should be flexing)


Which phase of the turn are you referring to when you say that I'm lengthening the outside leg when I should be flexing? I guess not the release (there it seems OK?), and not the high-C (there it should be lengthening), so is it the "flex to tighten the arc" at the bottom?

@DougD, milesb: thanks, I also think my control of the stance leg tipping is still lacking (not just based on this clip, but a few other ones as well). I'll experiment with the drill you suggested.

noobSkier wrote:I have no comments for MA, but I just want to say that the skiing in your last video looks VERY nice! Are you self-taught PMTS?


Hehe, I have a folder with clips of nice PMTS skiing (the criteria is "looks better than mine" I guess) collected from the forum -- there's a clip of yours in there :mrgreen: Thanks for the compliment!
oggy
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:21 am
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: MA for oggy

Postby Bob_Y » Mon Mar 27, 2017 5:38 pm

Hi Oggy,

I hate to say this but I think you're heading in the wrong direction and a U-turn would be appropriate here.

Your practice routine seems to be strongly focused on upper body drills. Well, sure enough, you're skiing with your upper body and not your feet.

If you're not tipping your feet, you're trapped in low end movements--and there is no escape until you address this issue.

It's no coincidence that tipping is the first essential in the Essentials. It is the most essential of the Essentials and the foundation for everything else.

I would recommend the drills in Chapter 2 "Tipping" of the Essentials. Do these until you can establish an arc by tipping your feet. Right now your turning action consists of swinging the tails around a pivot point close to the tip of your skis. There is no arcing action in this movement.


Bob
Bob_Y
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:53 am

Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:32 am

Hi Bob,

no worries, I'm here to learn. I absolutely agree that the turns in the last video are swingy with little arcing (I say as much in my post). I know that tipping is the first essential, but in my experience it quickly becomes impossible unless the other essentials are working, and it's often a 2 steps forward, 1 step back thing, you focus on one thing, the other one suffers. But after a while, you're hopefully better off than when you started. E.g., just before the previous videos were shot, I was focusing more on tipping and less on the upper body, now it was the other way around.

So I'm hoping the feedback here can point me in the right direction - although right now, it's pointing in at least two :D At any rate, I'm planning to work on longer, slower and more patient turns, until I nail them there.
oggy
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:21 am
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: MA for oggy

Postby jbotti » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:19 am

Oggy, go back and read Max501s post and then go look at your video using the pause key. Your deep flexion comes into the apex of the turn which enables you to push on the tails and juice them around (as your weight is aft in this position). From that point you extend some to release. This is the opposite of what we do in good PMTS skiing. Best to eliminate this now. The more you ski like this the more ingrained it will become.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

Re: MA for oggy

Postby Bob_Y » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:13 am

Hi Oggy,

I have to disagree with your basic premise.

Tipping your skis to create an arc generates forces that are missing from your skiing. Skiing is fundamentally about balancing against the forces generated by an arcing ski. Without these forces in place you're not really doing it. You can't counteract and counter balance if you have nothing (no force) to counter against. The presence of the word counter in these terms implies that they are working against something else. These movements don't work if the "something else" is not present.

Bob
Bob_Y
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:53 am

Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:04 pm

jbotti wrote:Oggy, go back and read Max501s post and then go look at your video using the pause key. Your deep flexion comes into the apex of the turn which enables you to push on the tails and juice them around (as your weight is aft in this position).


Hi jbotti, I did read Max's post, and I stepped through the video frame-by-frame many times. So the undesired lengthening of the outside leg that he talks about in the first point of his post is right after the apex? I think I can see that. Although, the tail swing starts before the apex (but, more worryingly, continues through it).

jbotti wrote:From that point you extend some to release.


This I can't see. I see the hips rising, but I don't really see my legs extending. But maybe I'm not seeing it well. Which leg is extending?

Also, would your suggestion then be fixing flexing and extending first?
Last edited by oggy on Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
oggy
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:21 am
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:18 pm

Hi Bob,

Bob_Y wrote:These movements don't work if the "something else" is not present.


I'm not saying that they work in isolation, I'm saying that the "something else" in my experience has a limited range without some help from the upper body. Again, I fully agree that the skis are doing a lot of skidding and very little arcing in the turns in the last video.
oggy
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:21 am
Location: Zurich, Switzerland

Re: MA for oggy

Postby jbotti » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:54 pm

oggy wrote:This I can't see. I see the hips rising, but I don't really see my legs extending. But maybe I'm not seeing it well. Which leg is extending?

Also, would your suggestion then be fixing flexing and extending first?


Look at your second turn starting at the :04 point. You have pushed the tails and you're flexed and to release you extend or stand up some (yes your hips rise). If you cant see it perhaps attending a camp is the better way to progress.

What we are looking for in PMTS is flexing to release which means flexing and tipping occurring at almost the same time (the tipping starts immediately after the flexing begins) without any extension. Your flexing does not involve a release and when you are flexed you are not or have not started the tipping of the old stance leg. This does not happen until you extend.

Again if you can't see it we have reached an impasse. But need to ask: how else can your hips rise if your legs do not extend? Perhaps you have discovered some skeletal functionality that does not exist in others.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 1795
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

PreviousNext

Return to Movement Analysis and Video

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron