MA for oggy

Re: MA for oggy

Postby mardale » Tue Mar 28, 2017 8:04 pm

Oggy - you actually know it is there: you called it a hard edge set and you can see it also in the slow-motion, with the pole plant.

The leg does not have to extend a lot for it to be a push off - it just doesn't relax and flex when it's supposed to.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:54 am

jbotti wrote:But need to ask: how else can your hips rise if your legs do not extend? Perhaps you have discovered some skeletal functionality that does not exist in others.


Max_501 and Harald have both written about this:

http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php ... =30#p45720

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=908#p9125

I personally often find it hard to discern in videos if the angle of (the back of) the femur to the tibia is increasing, or if it's just the hips rising, especially when there's not a lot of flexing or extending. That's why I'm asking for more specific feedback about the timing of the extension and the leg which is initiating it. If the consensus of high-level PMTS skiers here is that I'm extending my legs at transition, I'm happy to accept that and work on improving both my MA skills and my movements. I'm not here to ruffle any feathers, and while I do appreciate you taking the time, I'd also appreciate a less sarcastic tone.

mardale wrote:Oggy - you actually know it is there: you called it a hard edge set and you can see it also in the slow-motion, with the pole plant.


Hi mardale, by "hard edge set" I mean that the skis are not arcing at the apex, but only start gripping at the end of the turn, after a lot of skidding, unlike what happens in good PMTS turns. But these are outcomes - I'm looking for the wrong inputs that I'm giving. A lot of people have jumped in trying to help, which is great, but sometimes the feedback is conflicting, and in order to sort it out, the more precise the feedback is, the more I have to work with. Max_501's post was actually very good in that regard, I was just asking for clarification on one point.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby jbotti » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:32 am

oggy wrote: I'd also appreciate a less sarcastic tone.


Seriously? You have had a blue level PMTS coach telling you that you are extending along with others and even in this post you are still disagreeing with the MA. The post you cited says that 1cm of flexion avoids extension so what does it mean when your hips rise by 5+ inches? Here is a non sarcastic tip for MA. Watch the hips. If they rise into release the skier is extending.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:34 am

jbotti wrote:Seriously? You have had a blue level PMTS coach telling you that you are extending along with others and even in this post you are still disagreeing with the MA.


Like I said, if the consensus is that I'm extending at the release, I'm happy to accept that.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby DougD » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:01 am

oggy wrote:
mardale wrote:Oggy - you actually know it [the extension] is there: you called it a hard edge set and you can see it also in the slow-motion, with the pole plant.


Hi mardale, by "hard edge set" I mean that the skis are not arcing at the apex, but only start gripping at the end of the turn, after a lot of skidding, unlike what happens in good PMTS turns.

Mardale has given you the answer but you're arguing semantics? Whether you call it a "hard edge set" or "skis gripping after an extended skid", it occurs for only one reason: pushing (aka, extending) the legs near the end of the turn.

oggy wrote:But these are outcomes - I'm looking for the wrong inputs that I'm giving.

See the above. Max_501 and jbotti have also told you, you're extending at the point you should be flexing. That's a wrong input.

Bob Y had a great suggestion: back to basics. If you want to become a PMTS skier, go to ACBAES1, page 1. Do every single drill in order. Master each drill before moving on to the next. Nobody is "too good" to do these drills. Even HH still does them.

If you do this, your skiing will be completely altered and you'll be on the path toward effective movements. If you don't (or won't), the variety of "wrong inputs" in your existing skiing will continue to generate confusion.

... or, attend a camp, as jbotti also suggested. (Warning: your skiing will be torn to pieces. Mine was. Most campers' skiing is. That's the only way to unlearn old movements and replace them with new ones. )
Last edited by DougD on Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby marsound » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:37 am

or, attend a camp, as jbotti also suggested. (Warning: your skiing will be torn to pieces. Mine was. Most campers' skiing is. That's the only way to unlearn old movements and replace them with new ones. )


+10

I'll never forget the first thing said by Diana, in the lodge before skiing (bad paraphrasing): "In our experience, campers who listen to their coach, and focus on the single exercise they are given - and are willing to feel awkward - make the most progress".
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:44 pm

DougD wrote:Mardale has given you the answer but you're arguing semantics? Whether you call it a "hard edge set" or "skis gripping after an extended skid", it occurs for only one reason: pushing (aka, extending) the legs near the end of the turn.


What I call a hard edge set occurrs right before the pole plant in the slo-mo (although, that's one of the less bad ones in the video). Mardale is saying the extension happens with the pole plant. Hence, I can only assume we're not talking about the same thing.

DougD wrote:See the above. Max_501 and jbotti have also told you, you're extending at the point you should be flexing. That's a wrong input.


I was just trying to pinpoint where this happens, and whether I should actively do anything to prevent it from happening. Max_501 clearly states that he thinks I should take care of my CA first, but maybe I also need to look at flexing right after that.

DougD wrote:Bob Y had a great suggestion: back to basics. If you want to become a PMTS skier, go to ACBAES1, page 1. Do every single drill in order. Master each drill before moving on to the next. Nobody is "too good" to do these drills. Even HH still does them.


I have gone through the drills in both ACBAES books in order (minus the last few chapters of ACBAES2). Clearly, I haven't mastered them all. While "go to ACBAES1, page 1" is never a wrong answer, the concept of a SMIM also exists for a reason - otherwise, there wouldn't be much point in having an MA section of the forum to begin with.

DougD wrote:... or, attend a camp, as jbotti also suggested.


I'm hoping to, but let's see.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby jbotti » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:30 pm

Someone bounced this thread and Harald's comment below is apt for your skiing and fits the MA you have been getting.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2558&start=15#p25979
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby Bob_Y » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:47 am

Hi All,

I'd like to offer a few comments before retiring from this thread once and for all.

Firstly, I commend Oggy for his courage and dedication to ski improvement that prompted him to post video and participate in the dialogue about his skiing.

Secondly, I will pose this question to forum members at large: What is the primary purpose of this forum?

If the mission is to help people improve their skiing, is this thread accomplishing that goal?

I will answer my own question with a resounding NO!

When I read Harald Harb's brilliant books I am impressed by how concise and meticulously organized they are. Above all they lay out a progression for ski improvement. They illustrate the essential truth that in any complex undertaking the order of the steps matters. First things first. I think this would be a good organizing principle for this forum.

While this thread has many interesting observations about PMTS, I would argue that much of this commentary is irrelevant and in fact counter-productive because it violates the progression principle. For example, many words have been spent on Oggy's transition, extension vs flexing-to-release. Good advice in isolation but irrelevant in this context because Oggy has nothing to release at this point. The flex-to-release move can't possibly work as intended if there is no pressure being generated by an arcing ski. Instead of tossing his skis about, Oggy needs to tip.

There seems to be an unfortunately tendency for everyone to pile on and threads devolve into ski instructional gangbangs that can only confuse the hell out of the student. I have to conclude that Oggy is in state of confusion that will only impede his progress.

In my opinion, Oggy, your SINGLE Most Important Move is to sign up for a Harb camp and let the process of re-education begin. Failing that, open the Essentials at Chapter 2 and let these concepts be the focus of your practice routine going forward.

Over and out.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby jbotti » Wed Apr 12, 2017 2:11 pm

Of course everything you say is based on the assumption that your MA is correct and that a blue level PMTS coach is wrong. I guess its possible but if we allow for the possibility that Oggy's SMIM is not tipping then perhaps he is getting the feedback that he needs to improve his skiing.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby Max_501 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:06 pm

Here's a learning opportunity.

Take a very close look at Oggy's alignment. What do you see?

If Oggy was to concentrate on tipping would it improve his skiing?
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby ChrisC » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:36 am

He looks bowlegged, or maybe the cuffs are too strong, so he needs to get aligned. Right now he can't tip properly, no matter how hard he tries.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby DougD » Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:57 am

Wow. Thank you, Max. We should have spotted that.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby ChrisC » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:56 pm

He also looks like he has some tibial varum. In any case, it's best to get properly measured and aligned.
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