Movement Analysis for zeK

Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby geoffda » Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:10 pm

One thing that would enable you to get better MA feedback would be if you could get your camera person to use the zoom. Ideally, the image of the skier should fill most of the screen. Zoom in to start and gradually zoom out as the skier approaches. Then gradually zoom back in as the skier passes.

Establishing LTE balance with the new stance foot looks better, but it is hard to evaluate the footwork from a distance. Continue to work on this; LTE balance is a skill that develops over time.

There is still some extension of new stance leg as you transition. Be careful that you accomplish the lifting of the new free ski by flexing and retracting the new free leg, not be standing up on the new stance leg.

The thing you need to focus on is fore-aft. The tip of the lifted ski should remain on the snow as you lift, but that isn't happening because your balance is too far aft. As such, you don't get the tips to engage and the skis don't come around like they should. When you set the old free foot down onto LTE, make sure you pull it back as you do that. As you lift the new free foot, incorporate a pullback as you flex, tip, and lift. Generally, it should be sufficient to pull the new free foot back such that the tips of the skis are parallel. If you were to imagine cupping the ankle bone of the stance leg with the center of the arch of the lifted foot, that is about how much foot pullback you should need.

However, it could be that there is an issue with your boot setup that is contributing. It is hard to know without seeing you standing over your skis, but if your setup is wrong, it will make fore-aft management very difficult. If you don't see results from practicing your Super Phantom with a focus on pullback, you may need to consider whether your boot setup is contributing to the problem.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby RRT » Sat Mar 28, 2015 8:13 pm

zeK,

How about a closeup video for MA of a single traverse (no more) demonstrating the lifting of the tail of the old stance ski and tilting it to initiate a single turn? You could include both sides.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby zeK » Sun Mar 29, 2015 5:21 pm

Ok so I went to a bigger hill today with long gentle slopes and now I am 100% certain there is something wrong with my boots, because my buddy finally got what tipping was and he was able to replicate what harb does in his tipping essential DVD and while spending 7 hours TRYING to replicate it, I just can't... On an almost flat slop he just tips his left leg by "rolling the ankle" and "relaxing" and VOILA his right ski followed, he stays completely in the arc, the ski doesn't skid at all. and he can do the variable tipping exercises and everything... So i spend 7 frigging hours trying to replicate just that...

I tried every possible interpretation of tipping to replicate the result, and absolutely nothing i did in 7 hours could reproduce the same movement...

While he was right beside me looking like a god on rails, absolutely no way I can replicate him by tipping the free foot and having my other foot follow..
I tried pulling feet back(fore-aft) - didn't help
Tried rolling ankle inside boots relaxed
Tried thinking of it as lifting the base of the ski.
Tried a multitude ways of cb/ca with upper body but it just seemed to put it on edge in the wrong way.
I realize I am not supposed to do it with the knee its an ankle movement so I obviously avoid putting it on edge using knee movements, but it just don't work.
The most fucked up part is that he has the same boots (Solomon Xpro100) and we have them adjusted inside the boots for angle as well as boot cuffs with padding, but something is definitely fucked up cause I couldn't tip with my old skis, new skis, before and after the boot adjustment.

7 Hours just to reproduce the basic result of the ankle tipping action resulting in the other ski following, relaxing and isolating the movement just DOESN'T reproduce the same result for me as it does for him.... From my buddy just showing me the correct movement i realized that in the MA video was WRONG --- I was lifting the heel by applying pressure with the Peroneus Tertius Tendon on the front insole part of the boot to get it to rotate laterally which isn't what tipping is, hence when after reading everything i could find on "tipping" on this forum isn't the correct movement.

Now I am left revisiting the alignment of my boots again.... As angry as it makes me for spending 30+ days this season without being able to tip properly I am enfuriated as well as motivated to finally get it whether i have to buy new boots... or get realigned at the Harb Center(which doesn't exist here in the east, so I have to improvise)

I would love to hear from anybody who has similar issues with not being able to tip properly.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby DougD » Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:00 am

zeK,

Excellent post!

You just performed a science experiment with multiple iterations, using your buddy's skiing as a control. Like all science experiments, this one tested a hypotheses, namely, "zeK's DIY boot selection, fitting and alignment will support his mastery of basic PMTS movements".

The experiment yielded consistent, repeatable results. The outcome was not as you'd optimistically hoped, but that doesn't invalidate the experiment. In science, as I expect you understand, optimism has no place (it clouds one's perception of reality) while negative results are valued because they disprove the hypotheses. Disproving hypotheses halts further exploration of non-productive paths and encourages the researcher to consider radically new hypotheses.

I would love to hear from anybody who has similar issues with not being able to tip properly.

~80% of all skiers suffer impaired balancing and tipping abilities due to boot fitting and alignment issues. My alignment issues are much smaller than yours, but until Diana adjusted my R leg I had extreme difficulty performing PMTS movements on that side. Once she did, the instabilities disappeared INSTANTLY.

Now I am left revisiting the alignment of my boots again...

Correction: you need to revisit the selection, fitting and alignment of your boots. Nothing that you've done supports a belief that the boots which work for your buddy will also work for zeK. You don't have the same feet or legs, so those boots may or may not be appropriate for you. Until you're evaluated by a knowledgeble (ie, PMTS certified) fitter, no one will know.

As angry as it makes me for spending 30+ days this season without being able to tip properly I am enfuriated as well as motivated to finally get it...

Be motivated, but don't be too infuriated. The best skiers in the world and their coaches are surely motivated, but they don't necessarily do any better. Read this recent post from Harald's blog, which suits your situation to a "T":
http://harbskisysems.blogspot.in/2015/03/foot-and-ski-boot-alignment-isnt.html

...whether i have to buy new boots... or get realigned at the Harb Center(which doesn't exist here in the east, so I have to improvise)

STOP!!! Your last phrase contradicts everything you've just learned.

You spent 7 hours (not to mention 30+ skiing days) proving that you don't have the knowledge or ability to "improvise" anything effective. Neither did any of the dozen professional but non-PMTS bootfitters that I've used in 30 years of skiing. This is an area where genuine knowledge and experience is essential, but it's only available from a few sources. Please acknowledge this reality. It will save you a fortune in time and money.

30 lift tickets @ $50 (a conservative estimate) cost you $1500, which you've acknowledged was all wasted. For that money you could have flown to CO and gotten everything done right the first time. Don't waste another season. Don't pour good money down the drain after bad. Make an appointment at HSS or at the one PMTS fitter in the East (somewhere in PA, the info's on the forum). Whatever it costs, it will be the BEST money and time you'll ever spend on your skiing.
.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby geoffda » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:51 pm

zeK, you don't have a level of understanding that would allow you to judge whether your buddy's skiing is the correct model. Just because you like the way he looks, doesn't mean he has it right. Your buddy doesn't have enough experience to know either. Both of you are just guessing. There is often a large difference between looking good and actually being good and most coaches can't even tell the difference, so what makes you think you can?

Let's assume for the time being your buddy actually does have it right. So what? Why would you think you should just be able to automatically do what he does? I mean why stop there? Why not just assume you should automatically be able to what Harald does? It would make the whole thing much easier and you could just skip right ahead to being an expert skier. I'm sorry to tell you that it doesn't work that way. Of the small number of people that develop into high level PMTS skiers, most of them take YEARS to do so. That is why Harald has all of this laid out in a nice progression. If you would just follow it, you could avoid all this angst.

There is nothing particularly complicated about tipping. Just go back to Expert Skier 1 and do the basic foot tipping exercises. Those are the movements of skiing and they are straightforward. The reason you are suddenly in a crisis is because you have overstepped your current ability in what you are trying to accomplish. Maybe your buddy can get away with doing his own thing, but if he can, he is one in a million. You can't be on his program, so stop trying. You don't just learn about tipping once. Learning to ski is a highly iterative process. You might learn tipping ten times as you develop your skiing. Right now you should be trying to master basic tipping instead of skipping to expert level 10.

Do you have issues with your alignment? While it appears to be sub-optimal, you are a long way from having gross deformities. You should not be messing around with your boots nor should you be self diagnosing alignment issues. I've had the training and I wouldn't even work on my own boots without supervision because I recognize that absent a significant apprenticeship (which I have not had), I am in no position to put the theory into practice. You don't even have the theory, so stop wasting your time. If you can't get out to HSS to get your boots set up properly, then leave them alone. Doing nothing is by far the lesser of two evils in this case. Alignment is important, but it isn't a panacea. Even if your alignment is perfect, you still have to do the work.

If you want to become a great skier, just follow the progression. Great skiing is built over time. Don't skip steps and don't move on until you have mastered the step in front of you. Just do what Harald says and don't try to analyze it or understand it. Understanding won't come until much later.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby BigE » Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:49 am

Can you provide a zoomed in video that shows you trying to do these things?

I'm no expert, but I can tell you that I thought I knew what I was doing for the longest time. Turns out that I did not. A well shot video would be very revealing. The experts on this forum could help immediately.

As for being knock kneed, and unable to get to an edge, I don't see that as possible. Perhaps unable to *release* the BTE, but being knock kneed, you are likely already on the BTE.

Perhaps just mastering the simple traverse on LTE would be of some benefit? Video of the attempts would then be very informative.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby zeK » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:16 am

Turns out I am flat footed... and cause I fucked around with my insoles for the bootheaters it made it even worse. My ankle range of motion for eversion is almost non existent, therefore i cant tip properly to BTE...

Even on the ground with no boots my friend had normal feet and good range of motion while i couldn't replicate him. Now that I went and got a Soul Footbed I can tip both ways properly without boots and am now practicing it on the slantboard.

Getting ready for Tremblant on the weekend to try one last time to do it properly this season. Super phantom with proper transfers is my goal. But obviously if I will be able to tip its gonna be huge.

As far as allignment it is much better after the fix 1 month ago in the cuffs and under the liner for the angle, we used geometry to figure the angle under the liner and for the cuff adjustment just like he used for his, anyways, enough talk, only video will tell.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby Max_501 » Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:20 am

As was explained elsewhere, alignment can't be fixed inside the boot. A more likely outcome is decreasing range of movement (tipping ability) as the foot is partially locked up due to the extra foam and wedges inside the boot.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby Kiwi » Wed Apr 01, 2015 9:17 pm

If you have restricted the amount of ankle movement in the boot by trying in boot alignment then no matter how hard you try you will not be able to tip. I know this because I locked up my ankle in a pair of raptor 150 rd boots which were too small. In my opinion a locked ankle is worse than poor alignment.

If I was in your situation and could not see a Harb coach or boot fitter I would strip the boot back to basic and go for a ski and try the stationary and sliding on edge tipping drills to confirm your ability to tip. Try and get some video if you can.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Thu Apr 02, 2015 2:37 am

zeK wrote:Turns out I am flat footed


There you have it.....everything else is irrelavent without footbeds. I am surprised that this was overlooked - especially with all the help sashalex was recieving on this very subject...anyway, sounds like you have rectified the issue..
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby DougD » Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:38 am

Kiwi wrote:If you have restricted the amount of ankle movement in the boot by trying in boot alignment then no matter how hard you try you will not be able to tip.

If I was in your situation and could not see a Harb coach or boot fitter I would strip the boot back to basic and go for a ski and try the stationary and sliding on edge tipping drills beginning with ACBAES1, page 1 to confirm your ability to tip. Try and get some video if you can.

As you, Max, Geoffda and I have repeatedly advised.

I fear that zeK's skiing will continue to stagnate until he stops believing/behaving as if he knows better. Attempting Super Phantoms before mastering basic balance and tipping movements is jumping too far ahead. Attempting anything with 2cm of dense foam crammed into one's boot cuffs is worse. :(
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby geoffda » Thu Apr 02, 2015 10:11 am

BigE wrote:As for being knock kneed, and unable to get to an edge, I don't see that as possible. Perhaps unable to *release* the BTE, but being knock kneed, you are likely already on the BTE.

As counter-intuitive as it might seem, the signature problem of knock-kneed skiers is that they cannot get edge. Even though the stance foot is already on big toe edge, the range of motion is limited. Additionally, they have difficulties rolling the free foot over to LTE. Releasing is difficult.

zeK wrote:Turns out I am flat footed.. My ankle range of motion for eversion is almost non existent, therefore i cant tip properly to BTE...

Even on the ground with no boots my friend had normal feet and good range of motion while i couldn't replicate him. Now that I went and got a Soul Footbed I can tip both ways properly without boots and am now practicing it on the slantboard.


Flat feet are generally very functional for skiing. Typically someone with flat feet would have good range of motion. zeK, how did you determine that you have limited range of motion for eversion? Did you actually have it measured (and if so, how) or are you just eye-balling? Do you know what a "good range" of motion would be? How did you determine you have flat feet? Are you completely missing any semblance of an arch? Are the soles of your feet dead flat; i.e. it looks like your ankles are connected to two blocks of clay? I'm curious because what you are describing would be a very unusual foot.

When you say you got a "soul footbed", do you mean that you had a footbed built around a SOLE insert by a bootfitter, or you just replaced whatever you had with the SOLE insert alone? What did you have for a footbed before?

Frankly, I'm having trouble reconciling what you are saying with the last video you posted. When the ankle is locked, balance on the big-toe-edge is extremely difficult, yet in your last video, you were able to tip to big-toe-edge and balance on it while lifting the inside ski. I would have expected to see the stance ski wash out, but it doesn't. If you are able to do that with a foot that won't evert more than a degree or so, that is impressive. I feel like I should apologize for missing the footbed issue, but from that skiing, I can't figure out what should have tipped me off. Maybe if I could have seen the feet better, something would have popped out. Regardless, I should have given your post about not being able to tip more consideration and asked a few questions which would have lead me to asking about our footbed. My apologies for not hearing what you were saying.

OTOH, I'll be interested to get the answers to my questions above. I have a feeling that things aren't actually as you think they are. It is like with your alignment. First off, you need to understand that in the relative scheme of things, your alignment issues are minor. The left leg looks a little soft to me, but I'm guessing it would need no more than a degree of correction. Yes, if we had access to you, we'd fix it, but it isn't so bad that it can't be overcome with good movements. You think that you can fix it yourself by adding foam to the inside of your boot to change the canting. Biomechanically, this makes no sense as the problem is knee tracking and this approach won't change that. More to the point, your video clearly shows it doesn't work, yet you continue to insist that your modification is a good idea. All of this tells me that there is a disconnect between your understanding and what is really happening with respect to your skiing. This is going to make it very hard to help you because you may be inadvertently providing us with incorrect or incomplete information, which may lead to incorrect or incomplete advice.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby sashalex » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:24 am

go_large_or_go_home wrote:
There you have it.....everything else is irrelavent without footbeds. I am surprised that this was overlooked - especially with all the help sashalex was recieving on this very subject...anyway, sounds like you have rectified the issue..


Yes, I overlooked the importance of a proper foot bed. This is because I personally don't, strictly speaking, "need" a footbed. My feet hold subtalar neutral on a flat surface at all times. Zek's situation is different from mine. I only realized how important this is after learning to tip correctly myself. Tipping the free foot will pull the stance foot into eversion with no muscular effort or conscious focus required. It simply happens "automatically" if the release is executed correctly. However, if the stance foot is eversion-locked (as it is with any flat foot), then the stance ski will always wash out. A very high profile footbed restores eversion range of motion for flat-footed people.

DougD wrote:I fear that zeK's skiing will continue to stagnate until he stops believing/behaving as if he knows better. Attempting Super Phantoms before mastering basic balance and tipping movements is jumping too far ahead. Attempting anything with 2cm of dense foam crammed into one's boot cuffs is worse. :(


Placing foam spacers in the boot cuffs is by FAR not the only thing that I did to his boots. The cuff spacers are only one piece of the puzzle. Trying to fix alignment with cuff spacers alone would kill your alignment as well as the hope of ever being able to tip. Alignment is about knee tracking. Not just two footed knee tracking, but more importantly, one-footed knee tracking. I will go into exact detail after I post some videos of my skiing. My process carries no weight without proof of its effectiveness.

geoffda wrote:Flat feet are generally very functional for skiing. Typically someone with flat feet would have good range of motion.


This is only half true. Inversion range of motion will be superb, and eversion range of motion is almost non-existant. If you doubt this, find someone with flat feet, and you will reconcile with this observation.


geoffda wrote:Flat feet are generally very functional for skiing. Typically someone with flat feet would have good range of motion. zeK, how did you determine that you have limited range of motion for eversion? Did you actually have it measured (and if so, how) or are you just eye-balling? Do you know what a "good range" of motion would be? How did you determine you have flat feet?




credit goes to go_large for finding this gem

geoffda wrote:Frankly, I'm having trouble reconciling what you are saying with the last video you posted. When the ankle is locked, balance on the big-toe-edge is extremely difficult, yet in your last video, you were able to tip to big-toe-edge and balance on it while lifting the inside ski. I would have expected to see the stance ski wash out, but it doesn't.


When he is doing phantoms, theres something about the way he does them (adaptive movements?) that hides this. When he is attempting to ski normally, it is readily apparent. His stance ski washes out in every transition.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby geoffda » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:52 pm

Sashalex, the information on alignment that I am passing on comes from the data gathered from over 10,000 alignments done by HSS. Not only were these skiers measured statically, but somebody from HSS skied with at least 80 percent of them so there is additional data that correlates the effectiveness of static alignments with respect to dynamic movement. You are incorrect about your assertion with respect to the *typical* flat foot having limited eversion. That is simply not borne out by HSS data. I can also tell you that one of the best skiers I have ever seen has flat feet and his eversion measures out to normal range of motion. That doesn't mean that zeK doesn't have limited eversion, but if he does, it would be atypical. IOW, people reading this who have flat feet should not assume that they will have issues with skiing.

The video that you posted is an interesting approach to establishing subtalar neutral, but it still doesn't answer the question as to how you determined that zeK has no eversion. Did you measure? And if you did, have you considered whether your approach has drawbacks that could influence accuracy? Assuming you got the measurement right, do you know how to interpret it? How much eversion would be normal? IOW, what is your basis for your belief that you have enough knowledge and experience to actually set up a skier correctly? Even if you had a Phd in biomechanics, I'd be skeptical that you could get this right because of your lack of skiing experience.

The understanding that we have with respect to skier alignment on this forum is backed by a level of data, research and biomechanical knowledge that exists nowhere else. There is no reason for you to try to convince us of anything. Just explain what you did to zeK's boots and we can tell you whether it makes sense.
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Re: Movement Analysis for zeK

Postby sashalex » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:11 pm

geoffda wrote: Just explain what you did to zeK's boots and we can tell you whether it makes sense.


This is a very difficult task. It would deserve its own thread, complete with diagrams, photographs, and equations. I'm not sure when I can dedicate myself to this, but rest assured that I'll get around to it.


geoffda wrote:You are incorrect about your assertion with respect to the *typical* flat foot having limited eversion. That is simply not borne out by HSS data


Admittedly I came to this conclusion by analyzing the only two flat footed people I know...my wife and Zek. They both had extreme limitations in their eversion ability; which was greatly restored when high profile footbeds were introduced. Perhaps they are both anomalies...but right now I think not.

geoffda wrote:IOW, what is your basis for your belief that you have enough knowledge and experience to actually set up a skier correctly? Even if you had a Phd in biomechanics, I'd be skeptical that you could get this right because of your lack of skiing experience.


Please believe me when I say that if getting harb alignment was an option...we would have gotten it already. The amount of time and energy I spent reverse engineering a 300$ process, is staggering. While it did turn out to be a few orders of magnitude more complex than I had first imagined, it is trivially simple (from an engineering perspective) in comparison to countless of my undertakings. Those who doubted my experience, knowledge, or ability to learn...are now the same ones who call me for advice.
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