Jeet - Knock Kneed

Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Jeet » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:23 am

Hi Guys,

Just come back from La Plagne. I was hit hard in the face to see what my skiing looks like versus my own perception. Looking at the video (which I will upload tonight, need some editing as it 500 MB) it seems I am knock-kneed, from the video you will see it affects my releases and it limits by tipping ability plus loads more.

I live in London and don't have access to the Harb Boot fitting services, I have to resort to the best one in the UK (profeet.co.uk) for now. Please can you give me feedback on how knock-kneed I am (as in how many degrees) and any tips on how to talk the boot fitter so he can do a good job. I know the cuff canting is usually no good and should ask him for Canting to be down at the bottom of the boot to bring me back to a neutral stance.

http://s1.postimg.org/ee8nzhlhb/Knock_knee1.jpg
http://s28.postimg.org/s2gvomdbx/Knock_knee4.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/qfpgwqcxf/Knock_knee6.jpg
http://s30.postimg.org/ybun8022p/Knock_knee8.jpg

If a video is better, Ill be updating this thread tonight.

Jeet
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:16 pm

Video would be best, as it will show how you move on your skis..but judging from the photos, you are correct in your analysis....unfortunately, i dont think that Pro feet are going to be able to help. They are only really looking at boot comfort and fit - no more that a shoe fitter.
The only boot technician that would come close is Solutions4feet in Bicester...

http://www.solutions4feet.co.uk/pwpcontrol.php?pwpID=1828

However, they are not a patch on a Harb Alignment Technician....plus i guarantee they will fit you with a new pair of cork footbeds..all this does is block your foot from moving..

I do have some easy tweaks that although are not Harb endorsed, they will get you pretty close. They will definately get you on your way to being in balance and able to practice PMTS.

The nearest Harb Boot tech is at Portes Du Ski - Holland.

http://www.sneeuwsportleraar.nl

It will be money well spent. Don't waste your time/ cash on anybody else...i have considered becoming a Qualified Harb Alignment Tech in order to bridge this huge gap in the uk. I even have easy access to a Dry slope where i could carry out the 'on snow' adustments..
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Jeet » Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:42 pm

Thanks for the advice.

I spoke to pro-feet on the phone an referred to me .solutions4feet.co.uk. They were just going work on the cuff and footbed when I said I need to proper canting done at the bottom of the boot.

Solutions4feet will have to do for now, the trip to Holland will need to be organized late this year or early next. I know they are no way near as good as Harb trained boot tech but what makes you think he will sell me cork footbeds? I suppose I can ask for something different which does not lock up my feet. I am just thinking any sort of correction will be beneficial.

We do need Harb Boot techs in UK, I will jump for joy as soon as there is one available. I hope you pursue the certification, please let me know when you have it :)
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Max_501 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:09 pm

First you need a proper footbed. Then alignment at the boot. Alignment at the boot without addressing the footbed is a waste of money.
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Jeet » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:54 am

Thanks Max. So everything must be done it order...

1. Footbed
2. Cuff alignment
3. Canting at the bottom of the boot

I have probanly massively over simplified the process, but hopefully that's it in a nutshell.
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:12 am

I visited Solutuons4feet in sep 2012. I have nothing bad say, but if you are serious about your skiing and developing your PMTS skills, I wouldn't waste your time or money going there..You will only have to get all that work removed when you get it done properly...besides, i had to add my 'own' tweaks to get my alignment properly 'sorted' afterwards...

Their theory is sound, but their understanding and application are flawed...
1. New footbed to support the foot.
2. Cant the foot to obtain 'subtalar' neutral - now center of knee mass 'should' be somewhere over the 2nd & 3rd toe.

All good so far, apart from you will get a cork footbed...not good as it blocks your foot from any ability to move..PMTS is all about being able to move your feet....

Step 2 is done outside the boot. The problem is that when you step into your boot, in the majority of cases, it will force your center of knee back to the inside..but what about the cuff angle adjustment?? This will only give you about 0.5 - 1 deg of adjustment.. Most legs need atleast 2-2.5deg of cuff adjustment to get anywhere close. (My boots don't even have this feature - salomon xmax130). Net reuslt, all the good work carried out is wasted..PLUS, its all done whilst you are static...canting the sole of the boot solves this, but i wouldn't get it done at Solutions4feet. Its a multistage process that involves Assessment in the shop and 'on the snow' before your 'settings' are finalised..even after this stage, they can be tweaked...getting the soles of your boots 'planed' is perminant and your risk having your boots scrapped when you eventually get them looked at by a Harb Alignment Tech..

As Max said, get a proper footbed fitted. The key is to make sure that a: your foot is in the correct position (subtler neutral) and b: the arch support deforms slightly under pressure - see ACBAES1. This will allow your foot freedom to move whilst still being supported..Note: a 'properly' fitted 'flexible' footbed does not need any reinforcement or stiffening added. A simple analogy, balance on one leg whilst bare foot. Note how your foot is constantly twitching and making tiny movements to adjust and maintain your balance. Block this movement, and you can't balance PROPERLY..you can still balance, but you require 'adaptive' gross movements which use large muscle groups...buckle on a ski boot which forces your 'centre of knee' inwards and all balance is compromised..

I appreciate your dilemma..been there myself. If you can't get out to Portes Du Ski, onto a Camp or out to the Harb Shop, i would do the job yourself. You will get infinitely better results than from anywhere in the UK..Trust me....
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Jeet » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:03 am

Thanks guys for all your help. I've been calling Boot fitters all day and they don't provide with me the confidence that they will do a proper job. I think I am going to do it myself using the credit card method and experiment how it feels. Are there any threads on this forum detailing a DIY solution.

I don't want to make any permanent changes to my boot that irreversible.

Again thanks for your input, I was so close going to solutions4feet.

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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:10 am

good call...i will PM you later..
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Jeet » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:43 am

Thanks mate, your input is priceless.

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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Jeet » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:59 am

Another question.

Looking at my alignment when I am in bare feet, I have a fairly neutral stance (can't spot any major issues with knock-knees or bowlegged). It's only when I get into my skii boots I appeared knock-kneed.

I am correct in saying

- The fact I don't have custom foot beds is making me knock kneed + the cuff setting on my boot may not be aligned properly (as these are factory settings, I've never played with them). If I get this fixed, will this be enough to get me into a neutral position?

- Canting done at the bottom of the skii boot is mainly required when the skiiers natural stance is bow legged or knock-kneed so more needs to be done to correct the alignment.

I guess the point am trying to make is that my natural stance is very much neutral so a custom foot bed and adjustment of the cuff would be enough to correct the issue without having to resort the external canting at the bottom of the boot?

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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby nipper » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:09 am

Jeet,
I have also used Solutions and would agree with Go Large. I think that you will get as good a boot fitting there as anywhere in UK but forget the rest. Footbeds will be cork. The proprietor was not very complimentary about Harald when I visited about 10 years ago, and said that he had recently re aligned a young lady who had recently been aligned at a Harb camp. How he could do a better job in his shop compared to Harald on snow is beyond me. At the time I was new to pmts and was not in a position to have an informed argument.
If the DIY option is the only one available to you, it is possible using the credit card shim method. Once you know how much tip in or out you need on each boot you may be able to purchase the canting plates from Harb ski systems. You would need to check with them first as I do not know whether they sell them as a normal retail item. You could fit the canting plates on the soles of your boots yourself. You would then need to find someone who is competent with a router to machine the top of the boot lugs.
At my first camp, my boots were not suitable for machining and so I took the canting plates home with me, bought new boots and fitted the cants myself. My brother is a carpenter and he set up his router table and machined the lugs with no real problems.
Having said that, there is no real substitute for attending a Harb camp with the on snow assessment.
.
.
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:39 am

Jeet wrote:Another question.

Looking at my alignment when I am in bare feet, I have a fairly neutral stance (can't spot any major issues with knock-knees or bowlegged). It's only when I get into my skii boots I appeared knock-kneed.

Jeet


Firstly, how do you know if your alignment in bare feet is neutral? What is a neutral stance? Do both your feet supernate/ pronate by the same amount? Do you have equal amounts of out/ in turn? Are your hips level? Are your hip square? Are both your legs the same length? Are both your legs identically straight? Do you have identical muscle mass on both legs? Do you have adequate and equal ankle flex and range of movement? Do both your femur have equal and adequate range of rotation in your hip sockets? Are your sports/ gym routine making one particular muscle group more dominant? etc etc etc...

As the years go by, your alignment changes due to injury, over use etc etc. Our bodies are amazing at adapting. Even a 1cm leg length difference or a slightly collapsed arch on one foot will comfortably get absorbed by our bodies. Its only when we have an injury or start to suffer with seemingly un-related symptoms - migraine, lower back/ neck pain etc etc that these mis-alignments come back to haunt us...However, the above list and more will be instantly spotted by a movement specialist. My wife is a movement and posture specialist and can spot these deficiencies at 50ft. (and many more with me.. :D )

You NEED to get your self fitted with proper footbeds. You wont believe how important it is. Don't go to a ski shop - they are just shoe fitters. Go to a podiatrist that fits 'orthotic' insoles. They may use the same equipment/ footbeds for your boots, but they will ensure that you become neutral. (I can recommend a great guy near me - he was also an ex-gb skier that raced against Tomba...)
Everything comes from the feet and you will be amazed at how much a little tweaking to get neutral will improve almost all aspects of day to day life..If you owned a car that always pulled to the left, and it was the only car you ever drove. You would think that was normal until you drove a car that drives straight...

The proprietor was not very complimentary about Harald when I visited about 10 years ago, and said that he had recently re aligned a young lady who had recently been aligned at a Harb camp


Had exactly the same response....He is a huge epic forum user/ poster...
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Kiwi » Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:02 pm

I have had podiatrist and ski shop footbeds, they were useless, the podiatrist one more so. Harald and Diana made my footbed many years ago at Sol Vista camp and they are perfect. The only thing I have changed over the years are my boots and boot cant plates, on the bottom, which I do myself.

When you look at anyone with their feet apart there will be differing degrees of vulgus angle, you must be aligned for your stance width while skiing. I am slightly knock knee and a narrow stance, and alignment to that stance, is the only way to go.
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Max_501 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:25 pm

Here's an old post from HH -

Postby h.harb » Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:45 pm
I probably explain the concept of cuff canting ten times a week. For the record, cuff canting doesn't have any positive influences on your skiing, unless you have high tibial varum, which is curve in the tibia. In this case, you move the cuff away from the leg to center the leg. If you move the cuff toward the leg to increase edging it causes problems. Move the cuff toward the leg and it pre-loads the boot and reduces ankle and foot function. Moving the cuff away from the leg reduces leverage and edging power, even in bowlegged skiers.

Cuff canting is one of the prime examples of Ski Industry marketing, as it is a virtually useless method to align the legs properly over the feet. Boot companies have used the words "Cuff canting" to fool the public and it looks like with some ski shops and skiers they are succeeding.

World Cup Ski racers have no cuff canting adjustments. Racing boots from Lange, Nordica, Salomon etc don't have cuff adjustments. If the leg is curved they adjust the cuff and bolt it in place, to center the leg in the boot. If there were advantages for edging or grip by moving the cuff they would have done it years ago, especially in a sport where hundreds of sconds count.

The history of canting goes like this, when the public became intrigued by canting the marketers at the boot companies had to respond with something because they have no useful solutions. In this case the marketers jumped on it and invented words that confuse the canting function.

Canting is done under the boot to tilt the whole boot. Simple, finished, over, that's it, and anything else is manufactured by the marketers to sell ski boots.
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Re: Jeet - Knock Kneed

Postby Jeet » Sat Feb 14, 2015 3:38 am

I am going to take one step at the time. I am going to skii without my foot beds, the foot beds are old and not customized.

When I took my foot beds out, I was able to balance on the edge of the boot far better than with them in. The only test is on the snow which will be tomorrow.

I am going to follow Harald's advice...

"Now, I’ll tell you a secret that not many ski shops or ski instructors want you to know. Most footbeds made in the ski industry are useless. Most ski footbeds are a gimmick that make money, lots of money for the shop. There are some shops that don’t sell you a ski boot, unless you buy their footbed with the boots. This is coercion. What most skiers don’t know and it’s really sad, is that the footbed may hurt your feet and your skiing more than if you didn't have one at all, as many skiers find out."

Me and a friend will be visiting Holland in the Summer to get things done properly.
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