MA request for zd

Re: MA request for zd

Postby geoffda » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:18 pm

Matt wrote:Don't you guys contradict yourselves when you first say that you should not rely on feelings and then that you should feel in balance?
I don't always feel in balance when I am working on new movement patterns.

Balance isn't a feeling. It is a state of equilibrium. We don't talk about feeling in balance, we talk about *being* in balance. In PMTS it is binary. You are either in balance or you are not. Objectively, balance is pretty easy to evaluate. I'd imagine that if you thought back on it, you could probably associate your feelings of being out of balance with something concrete, such as falling onto the inside ski, ending up with the tip of the ski in the air, falling down, moving some body part excessively and/or unnaturally to keep from falling over, etc. Can we stop the thread drift now please and let this return to MA?

Speaking of which:
zd, your analysis is accurate. You currently change edges by rolling the new stance foot to big toe edge first so you can push off to get onto your new edges. So instead of a release, you have a stem (albeit well disguised). If you want to make progress with your skiing, your first priority should be to develop a release (which is accomplished with flexion and tipping). As long as you are extending at transition, you will be unable to tip. Because you extend to change edges, you end up flexing late in the turn. Because flexion is a releasing movement, it causes you to lose edge grip, which is why your tails slide out at the bottom of the turn. That also creates a vicious cycle where, since you've lost all of your turn energy that would have helped you release, extension ends up being the most attractive way to get into the new turn. Additionally, flexion moves your balance back. If you were properly coordinating it with a release, this wouldn't be a problem, but because it is happening in the wrong place in the turn, it results in your fore-aft balance being disrupted. If you were releasing properly I doubt that you would have an issue with being aft.

If you want to address these issues, starting with Anyone Can Be an Expert Skier 2 from the beginning will help you develop a proper release. That said, if you are really motivated to become a great skier, starting with the green progression in Expert Skier 1 is the way to go. You'll develop tipping skills from the beginning, begin to learn what it means to transfer balance, begin developing one-footed balance, and learn a rudimentary release. All of these things are the foundation of the skiing that Expert Skier 2 develops, and it is well worth taking a full step back to develop your skiing from the most basic of movements.
Last edited by geoffda on Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby h.harb » Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:53 pm

First, those learning PMTS it unwise to rely on what you feel. Further, the feeling of falling is not a sensation that anyone should be getting when they ski. As Max stated you should feel in balance and locked into the turn. Pull back. CA. CB. Repeat.


Many amazingly good comments by PMTS regulars, people should heed comments by Geoffda, JohnB, Max and Helluva on this thread.
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby Vailsteve » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:00 pm

Jbotti is exactly right that ski instructors have used the phrase "falling down the mountain" for years. Another one is "jumping out a window". Or "embrace the hill", or "give the hill a hug". They are simply attempts to get skiers to get a sense of just how forward you not only can be, but how forward you need to be to initiate a turn. Lets face it, for many many skiers, obtaining and maintaining fore/aft balance throughout a turn is hard.

Reading this thread reminded me of a post from 3 plus years ago from Geoff. Geoffda, in his inimitable TECH CAMP 2011 post of Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:15 pm, wrote:

After that, we did some skiing with focus on the lower part of Sundance. For me, that meant Way Forward turns. Yep, Harald wanted me actually making turns with my nose hanging out in space like a ski jumper. In deference to the safety of those around me, I went first to ensure that if I careened into any objects they would be of the inanimate variety. Somehow, I managed to make some direction changes resembling turns and since what I was doing felt like complete crap I assumed it must have been at least reasonably close to what Harald intended. Of course when I asked the man where this was supposed to be going, he muttered something about a "science experiment" and then quickly changed the subject. With the steeper pitch looming, I didn't have time to ask questions and instead devoted my energy to figuring out how to maintain a speed well below terminal velocity with my face hanging directly over my ski tips. Since I am writing this from home, rather than a hospital, you may conclude that I managed to survive Harald's fiendish plot.


I have used Geoff's "way forward, ski jumper" analogy in my own skiing, as well as when teaching. This provided a mental image/internal cue that many skiers can relate to (how forward you actually can, and need, to be...)

And while it is true PMTS does not use feelings as a cue (ie Max 501), Geoff's "ski jumper" analogy is not that far removed from "falling down the mountain". Neither one substitutes for an actual PMTS coach or video on the MA forum, but they can help create a mental image of what is needed.

As Geoff says, PMTS does not need a "15 page discussion of trying to reach some agreement on what it means to feel like we are falling down the mountain". That is not the point. The point is to provide some frame of reference that a new skier can relate to make them a better skier.

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Re: MA request for zd

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jan 19, 2015 11:52 pm

Vailsteve wrote: And while it is true PMTS does not use feelings as a cue (ie Max 501), Geoff's "ski jumper" analogy is not that far removed from "falling down the mountain".


The way forward drill is not the same as pulling the feet back during the transition while skiing, which is what we are discussing here.

Vailsteve wrote:As Geoff says, PMTS does not need a "15 page discussion of trying to reach some agreement on what it means to feel like we are falling down the mountain". That is not the point. The point is to provide some frame of reference that a new skier can relate to make them a better skier.


The frame of reference should be the pictures and video of Harald demonstrating the movements. No need to make stuff up.
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby h.harb » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:03 am

And while it is true PMTS does not use feelings as a cue (ie Max 501), Geoff's "ski jumper" analogy is not that far removed from "falling down the mountain".


That's the analogy Geoffda made not what I told him to do. And during that session the primary focus was feet pulling back. Please don't make up stuff about PMTS we don't use. We don't teach by people's feelings about skiing. I never feel like falling or jumping down the hill, so I would never use that analogy. And you shouldn't think of it that way, it's just another PSIA excuse for not knowing how to teach skiing. The nose over the boot that I used with Geoff, is to develop a more counter acted and counter balanced relationship at the end of the arc. That was Geoff's interpretation about how it felt compared to what he was doing prior to that thought. And that isn't a feeling anyway. No one that tries to begin by diving into a turn to the falline, is going to have success, it's absurd to interpret it that way.
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby jbotti » Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:41 am

It's nice that Harald has jumped in to end this nonsense but maybe in the future those that are relatively new to PMTS might want to listen when a certified blue level coach like Max is commenting! The knowledge base on this site from several LT PMTS skiers is quite high. Too often less experienced PMTSers seem to want to put their own stamp on things and often its just dead wrong or will lead to issues.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby cheesehead » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:01 pm

Max_501 wrote:
cheesehead wrote:YOU might never sense that falling forward sensation, but I think many do (including me). It takes some effort to overcome that and push forward (and pull back!)


Then you may be doing something incorrectly because if you are in balance (CB, CA, fore/aft) you should feel in balance rather than feeling like you are falling.


I really don't want to continue this but, for me at least, this is what I take away from this, that if you feel out of balance there is probably something wrong but that doesn't tell you what it is that is wrong.

I find the statements that some never feel like they are out of balance to be difficult to comprehend. Maybe the "down the mountain" part of the phrase is too loaded (I wasn't aware of such a history to the phrase): if it was changed to, "I never feel like I am falling," is that really true? Those are your words--are you really always perfectly in balance??
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby h.harb » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:09 pm

If you are releasing properly without a push off from either leg, you never feel like you are falling down the mountain, jumping through a window or diving into a cesspool. The reason you think you still feel that way is because, "you are doing it wrong. PSIA invented the idea, and it is based on their extending or pushing into the new turn, which we don't do in PMTS. So you are not skiing PMTS releases yet.
THE END

And please don't provide any more excuses.
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby geoffda » Tue Jan 20, 2015 2:20 pm

Hopefully we can quickly put this to bed, but if there is further need for discussion, please continue it here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4581

Mods if you want to move the other posts that don't contribute to zd's MA there, that would probably be a good idea. Let's give zd his thread back and hopefully get him some more feedback on his skiing!
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby zd500 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:34 pm

Geoffda, thank you so much for your feedback. I will go back to the chapter on release in Expert Skier book 1 and try to develop a proper rudimentary release, followed by OFR and TFR. After that, I might practice the weighted release since Harald in the Expert Skier 2 DVD said weighted release would fix the problem of extension or new stance ski push off. Does this sound like a reasonable plan?
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:19 pm

zd500 wrote:Does this sound like a reasonable plan?


Yes, it sure does.
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby zd500 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:26 am

Max_501 wrote:
zd500 wrote:Does this sound like a reasonable plan?


Yes, it sure does.


Thanks Max. I got work cut out for me for the next several weeks. Will post a video again on the release drills after I think I have developed the correct release.
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby oggy » Mon Jan 26, 2015 11:29 am

Hi zd,

the heavyweights have already chimed in, but my 2 cents worth. In the first turn (basically a two foot release) in the first video your weight is largely on the inside foot. You have your work cut out there for you - it's very difficult to tip a weighted ski. Most people I've introduced to the 2FR exercise have a problem with that. Try doing one foot releases/Super Phantoms before two footed releases. Also connect the OFRs and make sure you keep the inside leg lifted till the end of the turn. Also make sure to keep the TAIL of the inside ski in the air, with the shovel on the snow - this will make sure you're not in the backseat. I don't know much about alignment, but I suspect that on a gentle slope such as the one in the video (exactly where you should be practicing this stuff, for sure!) you should still be able to work through such issues.

Good luck!
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby zd500 » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:47 pm

Thanks oggy for your feedback.

Just want to clarify - are you saying my weight should not be largely on the inside foot when I start a TFR or are you saying TFR is hard for most people so I should work on OFR before attempting TFR?
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Re: MA request for zd

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:00 pm

Watch this:

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