OK boys... rip me a new one...

Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby milesb » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:00 pm

Like Heluvaskier sez, it looks like you skipped the first step- stance ski balance. Judging from all the videos we've seen here over the years, that seems to be a pretty common error.
The other thing is that you are trying to imitate high level PMTS skiing, without the movements to get you there. Aim lower- alot lower- in your next video.
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby BigE » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:05 pm

HighAngles wrote:I have to say that I honestly didn't think it would happen, but I have to applaud your willingness to post video given a ton of scrutiny from many watchful eyes.


Thanks, but really, what have I got to lose? The post from Helluvaskier is amazing. I consider that alone worth it.

Helluva,

FWIW, I can do it all on skates or inlines -- I've skated forever and could actually land a single axel earlier in life, and could do the "double push" on inline speed skates and a sub 60 second 500m, which was ok for a 50 y.o.. I have full confidence in my skating. Skiing though is *not* skating. You're not instantly on edge on skis. Skating is something I am actually good at. Want video? :lol:

I'll take what you've written and implement it. FWIW, we did ski with sponges last season for several entire days. I could manage a green run nearly top to bottom with the sponge in place. The trick was to balance on the stance leg and hold the sponge with the free foot.... at least that's what I did to achieve success. Obviously, it's not taken hold.

cheesehead,

As MM pointed out, that diverging inside ski is interfering with the pull back. I have/had a video of a much more pulled back run, with a much narrower stance. It was far better in that regard, but I was back. If still have that one, I can post it. That may have gotten deleted earlier today due to the obvious back seat.

ok milesb, I follow. Baby steps it is...
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby HeluvaSkier » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:33 pm

BigE wrote:FWIW, I can do it all on skates or inlines -- I've skated forever and could actually land a single axel earlier in life, and could do the "double push" on inline speed skates and a sub 60 second 500m, which was ok for a 50 y.o.. I have full confidence in my skating. Skiing though is *not* skating. You're not instantly on edge on skis. Skating is something I am actually good at. Want video? :lol:

I'll take what you've written and implement it. FWIW, we did ski with sponges last season for several entire days. I could manage a green run nearly top to bottom with the sponge in place. The trick was to balance on the stance leg and hold the sponge with the free foot.... at least that's what I did to achieve success. Obviously, it's not taken hold.


If balance you have on skates isn't translating to skis, I question how balanced you actually are on skates. Yes, they are different... but a person who understands dynamic balance in that environment, and can utilize their ankles and feet to affect tipping angles, should be able to make the translation. Yes, Harb carvers are MUCH better because they simulate two edges... but immediate edge engagement or delayed engagement... tipping is tipping. Speed and jumping are irrelevant credentials; this is all about foot coordination and balance - two things which your skiing has none of.

Given that you're 'doing' drills, I think you need to get with other PMTS skiers, or better, coaches, or post video of your drills. You've left behind the most critical part of PMTS - balance on the stance ski WHILE tipping the LTE. With that piece missing, anything you have 'done' up to this point is irrelevant.
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby Matt » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:20 am

HeluvaSkier wrote:
BigE wrote:FWIW, I can do it all on skates or inlines -- I've skated forever and could actually land a single axel earlier in life, and could do the "double push" on inline speed skates and a sub 60 second 500m, which was ok for a 50 y.o.. I have full confidence in my skating. Skiing though is *not* skating. You're not instantly on edge on skis. Skating is something I am actually good at. Want video? :lol:

I'll take what you've written and implement it. FWIW, we did ski with sponges last season for several entire days. I could manage a green run nearly top to bottom with the sponge in place. The trick was to balance on the stance leg and hold the sponge with the free foot.... at least that's what I did to achieve success. Obviously, it's not taken hold.


If balance you have on skates isn't translating to skis, I question how balanced you actually are on skates. Yes, they are different... but a person who understands dynamic balance in that environment, and can utilize their ankles and feet to affect tipping angles, should be able to make the translation. Yes, Harb carvers are MUCH better because they simulate two edges... but immediate edge engagement or delayed engagement... tipping is tipping. Speed and jumping are irrelevant credentials; this is all about foot coordination and balance - two things which your skiing has none of.

Given that you're 'doing' drills, I think you need to get with other PMTS skiers, or better, coaches, or post video of your drills. You've left behind the most critical part of PMTS - balance on the stance ski WHILE tipping the LTE. With that piece missing, anything you have 'done' up to this point is irrelevant.

I think the biggest difference would be the ski boots. I have never heard of anyone tipping the feet hard inside hockey skates.
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby BigE » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:57 am

HeluvaSkier wrote:
BigE wrote:FWIW, I can do it all on skates or inlines -- I've skated forever and could actually land a single axel earlier in life, and could do the "double push" on inline speed skates and a sub 60 second 500m, which was ok for a 50 y.o.. I have full confidence in my skating. Skiing though is *not* skating. You're not instantly on edge on skis. Skating is something I am actually good at. Want video? :lol:

I'll take what you've written and implement it. FWIW, we did ski with sponges last season for several entire days. I could manage a green run nearly top to bottom with the sponge in place. The trick was to balance on the stance leg and hold the sponge with the free foot.... at least that's what I did to achieve success. Obviously, it's not taken hold.


If balance you have on skates isn't translating to skis, I question how balanced you actually are on skates. Yes, they are different... but a person who understands dynamic balance in that environment, and can utilize their ankles and feet to affect tipping angles, should be able to make the translation. Yes, Harb carvers are MUCH better because they simulate two edges... but immediate edge engagement or delayed engagement... tipping is tipping. Speed and jumping are irrelevant credentials; this is all about foot coordination and balance - two things which your skiing has none of.

Given that you're 'doing' drills, I think you need to get with other PMTS skiers, or better, coaches, or post video of your drills. You've left behind the most critical part of PMTS - balance on the stance ski WHILE tipping the LTE. With that piece missing, anything you have 'done' up to this point is irrelevant.


I have no problem on skates whatsoever, having played at a 'B' level adult hockey in my 40's and finished in the top three scoring. That is something you can't do if you can't skate which is what you are suggesting. I've been trained as a figure skater as well as a hockey player, and have spent thousands of hours on the ice. One measure of skating ability is whether or not you can skate without laces in your skates. I can do simple figure skating jumps on hockey skates like that.... I'd leave the skating comments alone.

I do agree with the rest though. There is a clear lack of commitment to the stance ski.

I think the skis being fischer holes are way over my head, and causing some problems. I'll go back to the 175 Progressor.
Last edited by BigE on Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby BigE » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:12 am

Matt wrote:I think the biggest difference would be the ski boots. I have never heard of anyone tipping the feet hard inside hockey skates.


The biggest difference is that the "hill" is flat and you supply the motive power, not gravity.

Lange used to make a plastic skate, with significant ankle support. Heck, all hockey skates have significant ankle support so that you do NOT tip/roll the feet inside the boot.
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby geoffda » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:30 am

E, good on you for putting up video. I'm short on time, but have you had your alignment checked? It looks really strong (bowlegged) to me. In one of the early turns from behind, I'm seeing you on your new edges, but your left knee looks like it is still tracking out. There are a couple of turns (far away, unfortunately), where it seem like there is a push of some sort happening. This would be a classic compensation for a bow-legged skier and could contribute to the dump that Heluva pointed out.

What you are doing with tipping is a really good start. You are doing the right thing. Two things that will help. First, you have to add counter-balance with the tipping. When your skis are flat (or if you are O-framing, when you are simultaneously on both LTEs) you actually need to be counterbalancing because at that point you are flat (or O'd) on a slope. Because you don't counterbalance, you end up tipping yourself into inclination which is how you move into the larger angles. The good news is that to fix that, you just need to add counterbalance--there isn't some underlying movement you need to get rid of.

Sorry no time for the second. To be continued :).
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby cheesehead » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:36 pm

>>>I have/had a video of a much more pulled back run, with a much narrower stance. It was far better in that regard, but I was back.

I agree: it is difficult to do one or the other, but even more difficult to do both at once.
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby BigE » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:38 pm

Thank you for your comments geoffda. I value your opinion.

-----------------------------------------


re: alignment: I have been shop aligned, 1.5 degrees R, 2.0 deg left fat side out. The left knee rotates as it flexes. When fully flexed in the shop, it is on center. If I bend it further on the hill with weight on it, I can get the L ski to chatter as the ski moves in the arc past fall line - as if it's now very over-canted. I'm not convinced about the left needing 2 degrees if it's doing that.

The right knee had a partial meniscotomy several years ago, where the surgeon removed some material (arthritis he called it) so that it would ride smoother. That had the result of making the right knee less bowed.

When I am showing O-frame, I am deliberately doing it, so as to show that I can.

------------------------------------

I have a thought about the divergence of the inside foot: It is exactly the movement that occurs at the foot when you double push on inline speed skates, but not as aggressively. If you've not seen the double push:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmFZxNEuJH8

Bowleggedness actually helps since the stance skate always lands on the outside edge. This is also part of my relaxed skating stroke. There is a hair of a double push in it, where the stance foot is placed down on the outside edge of the skate, then it proceeds towards the pushing leg after set down and steered back under the body into its main push. I suspect that the tipping movement to LTE has been strongly linked to steering my foot back under the body.
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby Bolter » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:44 am

If these are not PMTS movements IN DEVELOPMENT, are they TTS? No.

BigE is in the process of CHANGING his skiing from TTS to PMTS. To MA that skiing and not acknowledge any PMTS movements other than pole use is narrow minded and flat out wrong.

PMTS movements don't just all of a sudden hatch- fully matured, they morph into being over time with correct PMTS drill practice. This is most certainly true when a skier is TTS trained and those movements/actions are habituated. TTS is striped away layer by layer using PMTS drills.

Understood, TTS and PMTS are not to be co-mingled in concept or practice BUT linked turns free skied during the development process (which is what these videos are) of every TTS skier rebuilding to PMTS- is a mix. They can't help it. BigE is following a course of change.

RIGHT ON BigE!!
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby zuschauer » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:51 am

BigE, I am just going to address the alignment component here as plenty of others have covered the MA.

Please try to consider having been aligned in a shop just a starting point "ONLY". I go through a very comprehensive process with clients just to get to that point. This is all detailed on the HSS site under alignment so I won't delve to deep here. The main point is that static in shop alignment regardless of how accurate it is can change dramatically when tested on snow.It becomes dynamic as opposed to static and numerous factors can change what alignment really works for a skier on snow.

The next step is to go on snow with a very specific and simple set of drills that are designed to show how accurate a skiers alignment is. They are more of a look at a skiers setup than tests of a skiers ability or their level of PMTS competency.

I will be glad to go over this with you and send you more information. Again, this has been widely covered on the forum, and I just want to help you out as a skier/coach to understand and assess alignment as it pertains to what w are trying to accomplish here.

A look at your alignment from the provided video is still only a guess. It will very educational and beneficial for you to better understand how to assess alignment on snow as an observer and to actually feel the difference between "good" and "bad" alignment. This will help you get an accurate alignment for yourself and will really help you as a coach/teacher as well.

Please get back to me with a PM and we can then switch to email and I will get you set up with what you need to do this yourself.

After you have the training aids and instructions I'll ask you to go on snow and shoot video of both uncorrected (no changes to alignment) and corrected drills. Seeing and felling the changes will open your eyes and reinforce what you've been trying to learn here.

All I ask is that you follow my instruction and do no try to take shortcuts or try to change things. I learned this process from the folks in Dumont and it really works. There is much more to alignment/biomechanics than this, but this is where you as a coach/skier can take some simple drills and shims and learn a lot about your setup and skiing. It goes back to the basics as others here have urged you to do. I will also ask that you limit your work with alignment to what you understand and know. A little knowledge does not an instant expert make. Use the MA forum and the experienced eyes here as your base. You probably have seen a lot in your time coaching, now you just have to learn to translate what you already understand and have seen into usable information.

This can happen right now. You just need a very few items, some direction then it's just working a little on snow

get back to me,

Richard
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby BigE » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:36 am

Zuchauer,

You have an email!

If I can make it work, I'll have a look at my daughter too (the other video).

THANK YOU for being so helpful.
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby serious » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:29 pm

Wow, this is not what I expected at all BigE. I had a completely different idea of what kind of skier you would be. I won't get into any MA, since HeluvaSkier has laid it out very clearly.

I am not skiing much this year (spending 14-16 hours/week on a bike is a time consuming endeavor), but maybe next year we can get together or even go down to Holimont to see Mr HeluvaSkier. It is time I teach him how to ski PMTS, Canadian Style. JUST KIDDING! :mrgreen:
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby h.harb » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:03 pm

My personal SIMM for BigE, start to ski with balance on one ski at a time, all the way through the arc.
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Re: OK boys... rip me a new one...

Postby BigE » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:17 pm

Thank you Harald! Your prescription is very appreciated. It will be my immediate focus.
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