GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby madams2419 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:45 pm

I attended my first PMTS camp this year, the Blue/Dark Blue camp at Arapahoe Basin. My technique improved tremendously throughout the course of the camp, but one action remained elusive--true slalom radius edge lock turns.

In the videos below I am riding a pair of 12m radius slalom skis, but cutting large GS turns. Can anyone identify the reason(s) my turn radius is so large, or what I need to do differently to achieve edge lock slalom turns?

Any and all comments/criticism are welcome. Please don't hesitate to completely tear my technique apart--this is exactly what I want and I will not be offended. Thanks!

NOTE: These videos were taken a while ago and show a lot of extension/upward movement in my transitions. Since the filming, I have mostly eliminated this issue (according to observations from my brother) but am still cutting GS turns.



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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby HighAngles » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:32 pm

You're back seat driving. Work on your fore/aft balance and discover what it means to truly achieve tip pressure when initiating your turns.

There's a lot more to discuss here, but you asked why you're not getting tighter turns.
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby jclayton » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:01 pm

Get better video , from the rear , or below , using zoom and check through Max501's many lists of things to self check .

Pull both feeet back plus extra Free foot pullback .

Very ambitious if you want to do slalom edge lock carves after just one camp . Lots of pitfalls and refinements to get through before that .
skinut ,among other things
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby MonsterMan » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:08 pm

search this site for "hip dump", read up on that.

Look at the video from behind when considering this.
"Someone once said to me that for us to beat the Europeans at winter sports was like Austria tackling us at Test cricket. I reckon it's an accurate judgement." Malcolm Milne
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby Max_501 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:19 pm

Taking video for MA:

Stand about half way down the run. This depends on length of run and amount of terrain you can see. Generally I try to split the visible filming distance so I can get an equal number of turns from the front and back. Video at least 5 turns of the front, as the skier approaches, and then at least 5 turns from back, as the subject skis away. Pan smoothly as the subject passes keeping the skier in frame so we can see a side view. Use the zoom and OIS features if your camera has them. I suggest a max of 10x zoom which will help with image stability. If you need to exceed 10X zoom consider using a monopod.
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby madams2419 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:16 pm

Thanks for the responses guys. Unfortunately, I will not be able to get better video for a couple weeks at least.

HighAngles wrote:You're back seat driving. Work on your fore/aft balance and discover what it means to truly achieve tip pressure when initiating your turns.

There's a lot more to discuss here, but you asked why you're not getting tighter turns.


This comment is very intriguing to me. HighAngles, can you describe the feeling of initiating a turn with proper tip pressure? Specifically, can you describe the magnitude and location of the forces felt on your stance foot/leg during a slalom turn?

During my turns, I feel the centripetal force develop primarily through the balls of my stance foot. Occasionally, I will feel the force in the heal of my stance foot in the low-c part of the turn. I feel little to no pressure on the shin of my stance leg.
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby Erik » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:37 pm

I would recommend that you get video on something less steep than Ramrod or High Noon. I think you need to dial it back to terrain where you have better speed control, because it looks like you are picking up so much speed that large radius turns are your only choice. Gentler slopes are where you are going to need to do the work to establish the foundation for the movements you will need to execute on the steeper terrain. See if you can get some footage on a Green run doing your best short, speed-controlled turns.
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby MonsterMan » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:20 pm

maybe have a read of this thread before discounting advice regarding better video.

http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3906&hilit=feelings
"Someone once said to me that for us to beat the Europeans at winter sports was like Austria tackling us at Test cricket. I reckon it's an accurate judgement." Malcolm Milne
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby HighAngles » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:00 pm

I advise that you tread carefully in your quest for tip pressure and how things feel (the thread Monsterman referenced is a good one). Notice that I used the word "achieve" tip pressure. Tip pressure is achieved by using the correct PMTS movements. If you try to force "things" without really understanding the PMTS essentials you're bound to go down the wrong path.

It's great that you've attended your first camp - that shows commitment and I hope you're willing to continue your journey. In order to do this right though, you're going to have to start with the first of the essentials (tipping) and get that working correctly before delving into some of the finer points like fore/aft balancing. Rather than re-hash a lot of the same material that's been covered on the forum and in the PMTS materials, I recommend that you study that information and come back with specific questions that show that you have an understanding of the PMTS essentials.
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby madams2419 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:46 pm

I just read through the thread MonsterMan posted and many others. I have been clinging to the belief that I can perfect edge lock carving before mastering brushed carving--mainly because I am awful at brushed carving and don't find it much fun. I am finally convinced that this is not possible. As such, I'm going back to the drawing board; I'm going to re-read the books and follow the progression outlined.

Thanks for all the feedback.
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby Max_501 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:48 pm

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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby Matt » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:26 am

I'm not a PMTS instructors so take this with a grain of salt, but what I see is that you are not holding on to counter. You release the skis with a lot of counter and then almost immediately make a strong CA move through the transition and you are fully countered when the skis engage again. This means you miss some of the high C portion of the turn. This means that you have too little speed control and with this speed it is almost impossible to get edge locked turns.
The release is another area for improvement but since you already noticed that I won't comment.

Harald had some recent posts about holding on to counter on his blog.
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby cheesehead » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:27 am

So what factor makes the difference between a "slalom ski" and a "giant slalom" ski?

I have 175 Supershapes (2009 model), with a turn radius of 12.9.
I am 5-8 and 190 lb (yes, I am 25 lbs overweight).
I met a 20-something guy on the lift, an ex-racer and now designs and maintains the terrain park here. He had on 2008 model Supershapes 160 long, with a turn radius of 11 something. He is 6 ft tall and probably 160.

I thought, those 160's would turn quicker for me than the 175's, and he said he really likes longer skis. We are considering trading. But would 160 be too short for me? Would I actually notice a difference between the skis? I didn't get a close look at his skis but they are probably more banged up than mine so if it wouldn't make a difference I wouldn't want to trade for skis that might not last as long.

I realize the factors in me making good short to medium turns are 90% my technique, but I am curious what anyone would have to say about my questions. Thanks again.
--- aka John Carey
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby Max_501 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:35 am

cheesehead wrote:But would 160 be too short for me? Would I actually notice a difference between the skis?


Yes, you'd notice a difference and the 160 is too short for your size. The 175cm is probably 5cm too long, but better than the 160.
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Re: GS turns on Slalom Skis; What am I doing wrong?

Postby geoffda » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:59 pm

The title of the thread says it all. If you can't get a slalom radius out of a slalom ski, it means you don't know how to tip, plain and simple. To make a slalom turn, you must be quick from edge to edge and the quickness must be maintained as your tipping brings you to your maximum angle where you release and repeat.

Monster called it; your problem is that you are dumping your hip. You are extending, or pushing off, so that you can get your hip to move laterally until it gets outside your base of support and pulls you onto your edges. Yes, you eventually get some nice angles (albeit without the ability to control speed), but it takes forever for that to happen. You'll never get a slalom radius turn with those movements because you can't get your angles fast enough.

The quickness you desire can only be accomplished by flexing and tipping. You don't need to push your hip outside your base of support. Flex and tip until your range of tipping motion is exhausted and you should be perfectly positioned to let the hip drop down if you are relaxed enough to let it happen. The more you flex, the quicker your tipping movements will bring you into the turn. For super tight radii, it becomes a retraction-type movement. Your skis may not actually leave the snow, but you will feel a definite lightening as you suck them up and lay them over.

Slow brushed carves are your ticket to improvement. You won't be able to dump your hip when you are doing them, and it will allow you to focus on real tipping. If you want to get better fast, you'll need to live in brushed-carve-land until brushed carves are every bit as fun as edge-locked carves (and believe me they are). When you reach that point, you'll know you understand tipping. While you are trying to figure out tipping, practice the tipping drills regularly. I find tipping garlands to be very useful, but my favorite is static release to new edges on a slope. You will have to work up to the latter, but it is a great measure of how well you understand tipping.

The advice from HighAngles is spot on, but you aren't ready for it yet. Fore-aft matters, and eventually you will need to learn how to really load the front of the ski, but for now all you need is to be able to be over your skis so you can tip them. Keeping the free foot pulled back as you practice your brushed carves should be sufficient to keep you forward enough for your tipping to be effective.

Counter-acting and holding on to counter (per Matt) is also something you will need eventually to truly perfect the slalom turn, but again, it should not be your focus now. Focus on the feet first.

I know it will probably seem like a bitter pill to swallow that you came out of camp and you still aren't tipping, but trust me, you aren't alone in this. I've been exactly where you are (as have many others on this forum), and I wasted quite a bit of time resisting slowing it down and working on the brushies because they weren't fun for me either. What I didn't realize at the time was that the only reason they weren't fun was because I didn't know how to do them properly. It may take some time to develop the movements, but trust me, the investment is well worth it.

Finally I should point out that being able to make edge-locked turns on blue terrain or above with speed control requires a very high level of skill at any radius. Only PMTS black level instructors are required to demonstrate the skill, so don't be discouraged if the journey ends up being longer than you expect.
Last edited by geoffda on Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:28 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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