MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby Basil j » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:26 am

Max_501 wrote:Start here with a self MA -

Is the stance width appropriate for the size of the skier?
Does the release start by flexing the outside leg?
Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn?
Are the feet pulled back at transition?
Is the inside foot held back throughout the turn?
Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right?
Is the pelvis included in the CB/CA movement?
Strong inside arm?
Is the inside leg flexed as the turn progresses?
Does the outside leg extend naturally (no pushing) as the turn progresses?
Does LTE tipping of the inside foot continue throughout the turn?
Is the skier balanced over the outside ski?
Is there a pole touch and how is the movement and timing?
Alignment - watch the skis and knees carefully - does anything look like it needs go be tipped in or out?


is this checklist the measure of PMTS efficiency that we are supposed to be working towards? I don't see it in the ACBE#2?
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby jbotti » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:23 am

It is a guide to help people do MA. It's not in the books but Harald built this guide and we use it pretty much in all MA. It is great to use at home on Video that you have shot of yourself.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby geoffda » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Istanbulskier wrote:I am also an intermediate and have two skies.( classic head isupershape 170cm. and atomic race SL 165 cm). I can say I feel even more comfortable with race SL than isupershape(needless to say on the groomers only). Interestingly I was thinking race SL skies are even better for intermediates after trying them. They were better/quicker/easier on edge for me. Am I making a big mistake? I also work for higher angles as all others.


Are you talking about the Atomic Race SL D2? That is a horrible ski for PMTS development! The extreme hourglass shape combined with the torsional stiffness makes it very resistant to tipping. Once you do get it on edge, the ski only really performs well at high edge angles (and it does not like to brush). If you don't yet have the movements to properly allow angles to develop naturally, that ski will encourage you to use some combination of inclination and hip dumping to get them. Additionally, the ski has fantastic grip but in the hands of the less skilled, that just encourages stomping on the edge way too early & trying to force the turn. Unfortunately, you can get away with doing that on that ski and it will make you feel like a hero when you do it--until it gets a little steeper. Unless you know absolutely what you are doing, this ski will lead you down the wrong path. That said, when you do know what you are doing, the ski is a riot. I own a pair & can speak from experience both about being lead astray by it and how much fun it is when it is skied properly.

The iSuperShape is an incredible ski for PMTS development. Probably the best thing about them is that in order to make them grip on hard snow (making slalom radius turns) you must do everything right. They reward great movements with confidence inspiring edge grip, but movement mistakes aren't catastrophic; the ski will just break loose into a nice brush. If the iSuperShape doesn't feel as good as a race ski, you need to ski it until it does. When you can make edge-locked slalom radius turns on a groomed blue run with hard snow on the iSuperShape, then you will be ready to handle a real race ski and make it actually perform the way it was designed to.
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby sgarrozzo » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:35 am

Hi Geoffda, but when you are speacking about Isupershape, you're referring only to the iss speed or even to the magnum/rally/titan?
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby geoffda » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:31 am

sgarrozzo wrote:Hi Geoffda, but when you are speacking about Isupershape, you're referring only to the iss speed or even to the magnum/rally/titan?

I was talking about the original iSuperShape (which sadly is no longer made). IstanbulSkier said he had a pair.
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby Istanbulskier » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:35 pm

geoffda wrote:Are you talking about the Atomic Race SL D2? That is a horrible ski for PMTS development! The extreme hourglass shape combined with the torsional stiffness makes it very resistant to tipping. Once you do get it on edge, the ski only really performs well at high edge angles (and it does not like to brush). If you don't yet have the movements to properly allow angles to develop naturally, that ski will encourage you to use some combination of inclination and hip dumping to get them. Additionally, the ski has fantastic grip but in the hands of the less skilled, that just encourages stomping on the edge way too early & trying to force the turn. Unfortunately, you can get away with doing that on that ski and it will make you feel like a hero when you do it--until it gets a little steeper. Unless you know absolutely what you are doing, this ski will lead you down the wrong path. That said, when you do know what you are doing, the ski is a riot. I own a pair & can speak from experience both about being lead astray by it and how much fun it is when it is skied properly.

The iSuperShape is an incredible ski for PMTS development. Probably the best thing about them is that in order to make them grip on hard snow (making slalom radius turns) you must do everything right. They reward great movements with confidence inspiring edge grip, but movement mistakes aren't catastrophic; the ski will just break loose into a nice brush. If the iSuperShape doesn't feel as good as a race ski, you need to ski it until it does. When you can make edge-locked slalom radius turns on a groomed blue run with hard snow on the iSuperShape, then you will be ready to handle a real race ski and make it actually perform the way it was designed to.


Yes I meant the Atomic Race SL D2 and Original İsuperhapes(ski on them only about 30 days). And now my mind is even more confused about those skis after what you have said about Atomics. Last year one ski day on my isupershapes: I saw a ex ski racer friend and he said to try his skis . I tried them and I felt much better turn easier better edge control and same day changed my skis. I reconed they may be stif but I am a 200 pounds man so they are fine for me. To be honest I couldnt come to forum and say why all including Harold is big fun of isupershapes where there is an Atomic sl ski is much better. But now when rethink what you have written I really felt like an hero on easier slopes and getting difficulties on steeper slopes with atomics and I use to catch higher angles on İsupershape which I am thinking to back on them this season.I also remember that atomics encourages stomping on the edge early and trying to force the turn exactly like you said. I still I have doubts which ski is better for me. D2 Sl is a fun to ski even at my level but I dont want fun I want to level up.

And now I am afraid would you say to get rid of my 150 stif ski boots too?
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby geoffda » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:05 pm

Istanbulskier wrote:Yes I meant the Atomic Race SL D2 and Original İsuperhapes(ski on them only about 30 days). And now my mind is even more confused about those skis after what you have said about Atomics. Last year one ski day on my isupershapes: I saw a ex ski racer friend and he said to try his skis . I tried them and I felt much better turn easier better edge control and same day changed my skis. I reconed they may be stif but I am a 200 pounds man so they are fine for me. To be honest I couldnt come to forum and say why all including Harold is big fun of isupershapes where there is an Atomic sl ski is much better. But now when rethink what you have written I really felt like an hero on easier slopes and getting difficulties on steeper slopes with atomics and I use to catch higher angles on İsupershape which I am thinking to back on them this season.I also remember that atomics encourages stomping on the edge early and trying to force the turn exactly like you said. I still I have doubts which ski is better for me. D2 Sl is a fun to ski even at my level but I dont want fun I want to level up.

And now I am afraid would you say to get rid of my 150 stif ski boots too?


I don't find the longitudinal flex of the non-FIS Atomics to be too stiff (and I only weigh 160 lbs), but the torsional stiffness provides plenty of resistance to initial tipping. That same torsional stiffness is a big reason that ski grips so well. If you want to up your game, spend most of your time on your iSuperShapes. That doesn't mean you have to throw away your Atomic Race SL D2's--just recognize that as fun as they are, you need to limit your time on them for now because they aren't going to help your skiing. Just like speed masks balance and movement weaknesses, so does having a ski that grips as well as the Atomics. Making edge-locked, speed controlled, slalom radius turns on blue terrain with the original iSuperShape is the litmus test for high-level PMTS skiing. If you want to master PMTS, master the iSuperShape. There is no better ski to take you to the next level. Otherwise, please sell your pair to somebody on the forum :wink:.

As far as your 150 flex boots go, I wouldn't suggest you get rid of them. We like stiff boots on this forum. They hold you where you need to be over the ski. I ski in a Head 130 flex and I consider that to be soft.
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby Max_501 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:45 pm

The D2 isn't as stiff as some of Atomic's past models but it still has that Atomic burly feel to it. Most skiers I've seen on these are making nice GS arcs on an 11.5M radius ski. As Geoff pointed out the incredible grip gives a sense of stability that hides technique flaws.
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby geoffda » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:26 pm

Max_501 wrote:The D2 isn't as stiff as some of Atomic's past models but it still has that Atomic burly feel to it. Most skiers I've seen on these are making nice GS arcs on an 11.5M radius ski. As Geoff pointed out the incredible grip gives a sense of stability that hides technique flaws.

Yeah, that is a really good point and the fact is that I haven't been on them yet this season so I've probably got selective memory about the leg workout you get when you actually make real slalom arcs with them. :D
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby Istanbulskier » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:03 am

Many thanks above info was very valuable for me. Can you pls correct me if I am wrong. Atomics incredible grip (I believe much higher grip then supershapes) give me a sense of stability and also give me the sense of 'Okay that angle is good enough cause my skis turned, no more freefoot bending needed, no more free foot tipping needed'. and those senses prevent me working on many essentials of PMTS.
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby geoffda » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:39 am

Istanbulskier wrote:Many thanks above info was very valuable for me. Can you pls correct me if I am wrong. Atomics incredible grip (I believe much higher grip then supershapes) give me a sense of stability and also give me the sense of 'Okay that angle is good enough cause my skis turned, no more freefoot bending needed, no more free foot tipping needed'. and those senses prevent me working on many essentials of PMTS.


Yes, everything about the Atomics encourages park and ride skiing. Because you get so much grip for free with the Atomics, it would be very difficult to learn the correct movements that grant access to edge grip. Coincidentally, those are the same movements that are required to actually make a slalom radius turn with the Atomics on steeper terrain. The iSuperShape has *enough* grip to ski hard snow, but *only* when you ski it properly.

Continuously increasing your tipping throughout the turn to create a true edge-locked carved slalom radius turn is not as simple as just continuing the mechanics of the tipping that you started the turn with. All of the Essentials are required, but it will be up to you to figure out how to put them all together to make it happen. The Atomic will make it very difficult for you to discover what you need to do. The iSuperShape will not only make your process of discovery easier, but it will give you instant feedback as to whether your movements are good enough.
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby Skiasaurus Rex » Wed Nov 27, 2013 12:55 pm

Max_501 wrote: the incredible grip gives a sense of stability that hides technique flaws.


I get your criticism, but, honestly, I bet Atomic Marketing would be happy to use the same statement as a plug for their skis-I mean, I think there might be a market skis that serve up incredible grip and stability that hides a skier's technical flaws. :D
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Re: MA Request for Supposedly Carved Turns

Postby Max_501 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:08 pm

Skiasaurus Rex wrote:I get your criticism, but, honestly, I bet Atomic Marketing would be happy to use the same statement as a plug for their skis-I mean, I think there might be a market skis that serve up incredible grip and stability that hides a skier's technical flaws. :D


It's a perception thing only so a knowledgeable skier watching can still see that technical flaws. And it only applies to easier groomers with decent snow. Take it to more challenging terrain or crappy conditions and the perception of grip and stability vanishes unless you apply solid technique.
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