Short Turns

Re: Short Turns

Postby jepoupatout » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:10 pm

Your hip are too square at the end of the turn and your CA comes from your shoulder. It is hard to flex when your hip are not engage.
Last edited by jepoupatout on Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby HighAngles » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:18 pm

jepoupatout wrote:Your hip are too square at the end of the turn and your CA comes from your shoulder. It is hard to flex when your hip are not engage.


Really? I can flex whether my hips are square to my skis or counteracted. What do you mean by "engaged" - that's not a PMTS term that I've heard.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby jepoupatout » Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:17 am

When you flex and your hip are not CA but only your shoulder you will not obtain the same result and It is very hard to maintain your ski on edge .
When Arothafel turn to the right he has better result but when turn to the left at the end of the turn he is losing the edge, hips square and even if the poling is well oriented and shoulder CA he cannot maintain the edge.
Everybody can flex with hips square but keeping the ski on edge when it has pressure on it ....
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Re: Short Turns

Postby arothafel » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:06 am

Thanks so much for the instant feedback while everything is still fresh in my mind. This forum is awesome!

HighAngles: In every camp I've attended it's been brought to my attention to be more patient. To let the turn "come to me" and allow pressure to build on the new stance foot. You may be on to it. In fact I hope you're right. I hate that UP move. I'd feel better if it was an "IMPATIENT" move! I will attempt to delay getting on that BTE so quickly. I think this ties into what both:

Max_501 and milesb are advising... "maintain the flex of the (old) inside leg." Yes, Miles has been telling me this for 2 years but I seem to be a bit hard-headed! Years of "old school" and BTE "heavy!" I'm thinking perhaps more drills where I hold onto the LTE to create an "O" frame and to slow me down from jumping onto the new stance ski too quickly. That should also keep me flexed, right? Then, determining if I can take it (maintain that patience) to steeper terrain.

jepoupatout: I wasn't really focused on my hips or arms. Both you and Max_501 are right that I could add more CA and CB. I sometimes wonder about my ROM in the hips. Nonetheless, even with what is demonstrated in the clip, I did not feel any tail washout or that I was losing any edge.

Thanks again...
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Re: Short Turns

Postby Max_501 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:20 am

Tipping, flexing, and CA drills.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby HighAngles » Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:05 pm

jepoupatout wrote:When you flex and your hip are not CA but only your shoulder you will not obtain the same result and It is very hard to maintain your ski on edge .
When Arothafel turn to the right he has better result but when turn to the left at the end of the turn he is losing the edge, hips square and even if the poling is well oriented and shoulder CA he cannot maintain the edge.
Everybody can flex with hips square but keeping the ski on edge when it has pressure on it ....


There was nothing in your original post about ski edges. You only said that it's hard to flex without CA which is incorrect. You are correct that maintaining CA through the release will improve edge hold at the end of the turn.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby kirtland » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:25 pm

This post was rubbish and contributed absolutely nothing to the advancement of skiing on this forum. It was filled with lies and bad information.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby kirtland » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:45 pm

arothafel,
After looking at some of your older posts, and seeing some of your history, it may take a highly competent orthopedic physical therapist, that understands skiing, to get a good analysis of why your having a problem with this. This is useless as they are not even close to the same points in the turn.
For my specific observations of your skiing, starting with your tipping, contrast the screen captures of your feet compared to Harald's in these two photos in similar locations in the turn.
Image Image
The following MA is completely incorrect
Although this is only one screen capture, it was typical of your demonstration. Your free foot is staying flat not inverting. He's in transition his feet are supposed to be flat here! Why? I'm not sure, you've had more direct exposure to this concept than I have, and I'm sure know what you should be doing. Are you so stiff in the hips that your leg innibits your tipping? Or do you just need to practice on a tipping board and isolate the movements more? Or do you just need a reminder that relaxing and flexing the old stance leg, makes tipping easier.? I personally think it is interconnected with what is happening furter up. Notice your hips are back and projected to the outside of the turn.

So that brings me to these screen captures of two different turns, at the moment of starting into the turn when your feet should be pulledback. Observe where your feet are in relationship to your hips. Then compare it to where Harald's are.
Image Image Image


Now in this next screen capture, notice the slight lumbar curve or lordosis which indicate anterior pelvic tilt, contrast with Harald
Image Image
which is causing your hips to be behind your feet, inhibiting any foot pullback to be effective, ability to counter with your hips, probably effecting your ability to tip your feet and resulting in an extension of the stance leg and a slight hip projection to the outside.

I suggest you look up and do pelvic tilt exercises and try to figure out what is going on there. To determine whether it is a physical limitation, that needs physical therapy or just an awareness and isolation of the movement When MA is wrong it doesn't help anyone.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby milesb » Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:31 pm

I appreciate what you are trying to do, but I don't understand your pelvic tilt thing.
Be aware that most of us believe Harald when he says that ( paraphrased) "if it was useful for skiing, I would teach it". So the lack of mention of it in PMTS material is most likely intentional. As far as teaching tipping goes, Harald is a firm believer in external cues such as tip the free SKI, and bring the free SKI close to the stance BOOT. This is a different move than moving the knee to the inside of the turn. It also looks quite different, at least to me. Do both in the mirror and see if they look different to you. The function of the moves is also very different.

I think you already know all this, however.

I am not, nor claim to be a teacher, coach, or whatever of skiing. I am able to see Essentials, or the lack of Essentials in people I ski with or see videos of. I am able to see where a skiers' balance is. I am able to tell most skiers what they are doing right or wrong if asked. I am able to correctly demonstrate Essentials at a low level. These are things that many avid PMTS students are able to do. It's a poor substitute for a real PMTS lesson....as can be seen here!
YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH78E6wIKnq3Fg0eUf2MFng
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Re: Short Turns

Postby Max_501 » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:21 pm

Miles, I think was KIrtland is trying to say is... Include the pelvis as part of the upper body so it moves with CB/CA.

http://www.harbskisystems.com/web-lesso ... menu_id=74
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Re: Short Turns

Postby MonsterMan » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:52 pm

Book 2 Two Footed release. p 48

It's all there.

Your inside foot tipping is adequate. Look at the sequence from behind.

"Focus your concentration on your skis and the rest of the body will take care of itself...."

For you, the caption under Fig 4.1 c will help.

"press the lower ski toward and hold it against the upper ski"

The way you handle those Harb Carvers so well tells me that some of the recent posts are not relevant to you Art.

It's time to simplify things, not complicate them.

As for your perceived up move, it's only there on some turns and no longer a major issue. Your flexing is adequate to get a release. Your flexing is adequate to get good free foot tipping. It's just a timing issue.

There was a recent post by Harald regarding some tricks to the two footed release timing detail, but the fourth line of my post is what I would like to see you concentrate on as you have exceptional balance. Let your body do the calculations! (I know Harald! muscles don't really have memory).

Nice video and thanks for sharing.

edit ps if you really want another thought for the day, think counter before the fall line as you pull back that free ski.
"Someone once said to me that for us to beat the Europeans at winter sports was like Austria tackling us at Test cricket. I reckon it's an accurate judgement." Malcolm Milne
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Re: Short Turns

Postby A.L.E » Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:51 am

I'm with kirtland on the hips.

I have always thought breaking at the waist has been the major issue for Art and although better these days it is still quite evident.

Recently I skied in a small group of friends for a few days with Diana. We had all experienced significant levels of PMTS instruction and knew what some of our important issues were to address. One lady in the group has battled with breaking at the waist as her No 1 issue for some years. As kirtland suggests it affects other Essentials. My friend spent 2 full days doing various pull back excercises. Aside from the external cue of "keeping the feet pulled back" Diana had her think about "tucking her butt in", to get rid of the Jay Lo. look.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby Max_501 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:07 pm

A.L.E wrote:I have always thought breaking at the waist has been the major issue for Art and although better these days it is still quite evident.


He isn't breaking at the waist which is an ambiguous area somewhere between the hips and belly button. It shows up as a bend in the lower back which he doesn't display.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:18 pm

kirtland wrote:Now in this next screen capture, notice the slight lumbar curve or lordosis which indicate anterior pelvic tilt, contrast with Harald
Image Image
which is causing your hips to be behind your feet, inhibiting any foot pullback to be effective, ability to counter with your hips, probably effecting your ability to tip your feet and resulting in an extension of the stance leg and a slight hip projection to the outside.


This is way above your pay grade Mr. Brown, your MA is way off. There is hardly a noticeable difference and Art's feet are exactly where they should be at that part of the arc. He's actually more CAed and CBed in that frame than I am. Your MA is incorrect. I actually prefer Art's picture to mine.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:23 pm

In our books and videos, we can only introduce movements that will help to correct skiing limitations; pelvis movement limitations are definitely part of that, however, we are not qualified to prescribe remedies for muscular and joint deficiencies, when results from on snow training are not forthcoming. We often give our students stretching recommendations and range of motion advice, based on physiotherapy. We have a PhD of Physio Therapy on our staff, who teaches with us. And two of my best friends are PT's and are two of the best in the business, and we have on going discussions about pelvis issues with them. Even they are baffled about why some people's pelvis muscles, one example, (transversus abdomens muscle) don't fire. This is why I don't write about such things in my ski books. If you give out incomplete and or incorrect information you cause more trouble than help.
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