Short Turns

Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:28 pm

If you ask amongst the students here who have been to camp, I'm sure you will find those that come with hip and pelvis issues; they have been addressed and recommendations made for the corrections. These corrections often can not be made while skiing. The people that come to mind are Geoffda, Rich Kremsdorf, Max501, HighAngles, to name a few.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:32 pm

Mr Brown,

Your statement about the Learning partnership serves only to demonstrate you lack of teaching and learning understanding.

And as far as those comments about the "Learning Partnership", the forum (where everyone chimes in about a few clips of video), it is not the place where a "Learning Partnership" develops, it never can, it's not the right environment, I hope I don't have to explain why this is the case, to you. This is the kind of thing that is done between a skier and his qualified instructor while teaching on the slopes.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:48 pm

Long term observers will remember HKcarver and his experience, which was similar, except he was not able to attend PMTS camps. This problem of people working hard to understand and implement the Primary Movements, but not quite understanding with the explanations given, is persistent. I realize that any criticism of any of the PMTS program is anathema to many of you, but I would think examples like arothefel's quest, would make it apparent the problem doesn't lie completely with the "student", as a "student" he is ideal, ie, dedicated, persistent, receptive, athletic and intelligent.


No one to my knowledge in PMTS instruction has ever said that fault lies with the student. I don't know where you dream this stuff up? I can't figure out any more who you are criticizing, the books, PMTS, the advice by amateur skiers on this MA thread or your own ability to read.

I can't believe you posted this? You have no idea of what you are talking about. Your analysis, maybe others have a hard time telling you this, but I don't; you don't have a clue of MA. Please stop picking on absurd examples.
HKcarver had no idea what he was doing and was getting information from Epic and was playing with his alignment incorrectly, (backwards) at the same time. And even with this confusion mostly created by himself, not because we (the forum) confused him, but because he was listening to conflicting advice and trying to use both at the same time. (now this is a case where it is the student's fault), because it's the Internet, not a real lesson,

Others from a different forum, who knew nothing about his movements; were giving him incorrect advice. Eventually, he did improve dramatically from the simple advice given to him from this forum. It's easy for you to criticism Mr Brown, but at least try to get your facts and your examples correctly formulated before you continue to make yourself out to be even more of a complete nincompoop.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:09 pm

So when we had our boots off, in the lodge, I was inquiring more and she demonstrated inverting and everting her foot without moving her knee, I was amazed at the range of motion she had and how much she could articulate at just the ankle and she was explaining what muscles she was engaging to do it. I tried it and found I could barely articulate my ankle and had difficulty sensing what muscles to engage.


Another misconception perpetuated by Kirtland; most top world cup skiers don't have foot eversion ability. They contract their muscles to create the tension to evert the foot, but they don't have the foot movement. In fact, the movement described here is Diana's foot, which is one of the best examples of hyper mobility. Hyper mobility in the foot, is bad for skiing, Diana has overcome it with specially designed and modified footbeds, boots and alignment. The fact that Diana's foot moves isn't the goal for skiing. The activation of the eversion muscles, as described in book 1, by Tipping the boot with the muscles that control the ankle side to side, is what you are trying to accomplish.
It might be a better idea to ask questions here, than to make blanket statements about things you have read into your thinking, incorrectly.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:19 pm

I thought it was refreshing of Kirtland to see if there was another way to communicate the areas to work on. I agree that watching arothafel's videos, there doesn't seem to be as much progression after a lot of great dedication and desire to improve. My general takeaway (because were all experts at dissecting posts for our benefit!) was that Kirtland wanted to see if there was either something missing or another way of positioning the exercises that would make it "click" and help get the performance breakthrough the poster is looking for. My vote is for Art to do some linked power releases - would be curious to see how everything stacks up for Art with a long outside leg and flexed inside leg.



Exactly why I don't participate on the MA forum. Too many cooks, with so many prescriptions it's dizzying and Kirkland adds nothing to the evolution of Art's skiing, in fact his MA has it wrong.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:38 pm

kirtland wrote:
I think tipping needs to be demonstrated initially without ski boot on, so it can be seen clearly and then done on an 8 to 12" wide tipping board so the sensations can be experienced prior to skiing, to be understood better.


There are so many holes in your post that I don't know why I'm bothering. To show you up? no, to defend? no, to show how misguided and convoluted someone can be about skiing and come off trying to sound like an expert, yes.

In the essentials DVD the introduction to tipping is in shoes and walking on a hill side explaining the ankle and foot efforts. I think you should read, study and at least look through our materials before posting BS.

I find it very difficult to believe that someone can miss the descriptions and importance put of foot movements in ACBAES1, if you read the book there are 6 pages in the first 15 dedicated to it.
Direct quotes from the second page of 6 devoted to foot tipping or lower body tipping.

(Quote from: Anyone can be an Expert Skier 1) Roll or tip your feet side to side in order to tip your boots from one side to the other. The movements of tipping demonstrated (page 16) are done standing across the hill, to produce the feelings of edging you sense with your skis.The feet should be your focus because they are the most direct connection to the boots and skis and give the most feedback in sensing balance.


Sounds like English to me!
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:56 pm

Now I'm going to address specifically Art's skiing. I've seen Art ski in about 4 camps, two for sure at Hood and at least two at A-Basin. It's been a few years now. Correct me if I missed any Art. Art came from a real old school Masters racing coaching background, backward movement development. He skied big toe edge exclusively, huge "A" frame. He skied fast with little control or balance. He's a good athlete, so he was able to hold on to that way of skiing for a long time, but it was highly damaging. He has made enormous changes in his skiing and to his credit has never stopped. At this point it's a matter of small refinements that require huge amounts of proprioception to change, with a coach right at his heels giving him feedback. It won't be done on the video MA forum, at some point Art needs some detailed work with a Black level PMTS instructor.

It's easy to criticize when you don't know what has transpired in a skier's history and don't know what damage the previous coaching has inflicted on the skier. But I do know what this kind of criticism does demonstrate!
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:06 pm

This is a friendly alert, persist in what you just did, by posting misconceptions, yours, misinformation, because you can't read, and flat out lying about what is written in my books or about PMTS and I'll be very happy to heal the problem..
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Re: Short Turns

Postby nugget » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:06 pm

Thanks for coming on the MA section and clearing that sh#*t up. Not sure if I am visting the PMTS forum or Epicski these days.
Oh yeah was reading book 1 only yesterday (coincidentally). So many references to tipping and how to achieve it etc I could have been reading "Essentials". Most people skip those first few chapters in my experience (limited) but that's the secret sauce right there (was then, is now).
BTW Art, thought you looked like max501 back in the day (in that still shot HH was referring too....claim it :lol: ).
Last edited by nugget on Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby ToddW » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:20 pm

I first skied with Art five or six years ago at a Solvista blue camp. The improvement in his skiing since then is simply huge. I've been to a couple camps with him and watched all of his posted videos.

Anyone who has skied for MA video knows that cameras emit invisible rays that tense normally relaxed muscles and cause them to misfire. Even worse, the camera can bring back to life vanquished bad skiing movements.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby milesb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:23 pm

ToddW wrote:I first skied with Art five or six years ago at a Solvista blue camp. The improvement in his skiing since then is simply huge. I've been to a couple camps with him and watched all of his posted videos.

Anyone who has skied for MA video knows that cameras emit invisible rays that tense normally relaxed muscles and cause them to misfire. Even worse, the camera can bring back to life vanquished bad skiing movements.


Maybe we should go back to analog?
YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCH78E6wIKnq3Fg0eUf2MFng
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:25 pm

As far as the up move, I agree with HighAngles, it's not really an up extension, it's more of a pull back move with both hips lifting after the release. In some ways like Geoffda used to have. Art keep this up it will eventually position your hips even more forward and the little hop of the hips will smooth out. It's part of the evolution to pull back and flexing.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:46 pm

Nugget: Thanks for coming on the MA section and clearing that shit up. Not sure if I am visting the PMTS forum or Epicski these days.


From time to time this needs doing. Thanks.
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Re: Short Turns

Postby HighAngles » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:12 am

Max_501 wrote:When you lift your outside foot to release try to maintain the flex of the (old) inside leg. That will get rid of the up you are seeing. Work on including your hips in the CA/CB movement. CA should start as soon as the skis are in the fall line.


I'm quoting Max_501's post to emphasize that not only should this be your primary "swing thought", but it needs to be mine as well. After reviewing all my videos from the recent Super Blue camp, I too should definitely follow his advice and maintain the flex of the old inside leg when flexing the old stance leg to begin the release. I remember Jay saying that the goal is to first match the flex of the inside leg by flexing the outside leg, but then go even further with that leg in order to "flex to engage".
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Re: Short Turns

Postby h.harb » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:23 pm

Remember High Angles it's not so much your extension on the uphill leg, its your hip lift (that looks like you are extending) on the left turn that causes the issues. Go to my Blog and you can see this is even a major concern for world cup skiers.
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