MA for young Tommi

[Max_501]

If you want the kids to be fast you gotta get them off the inside foot.

Do you see any improvement in this aspect?

Ancient what do you see in this frame? Where is the balance?

[jbotti]

Ancient, this is not rocket science. You keep coming back with video that shows little or no progress. Do you have ACBAES1? The book and the video talk immediately about two things. First narrowing ones stance (talk a look at your son's) and the second is learning and practicing the phantom move, which necessitates balance on the outside/stance ski because the inside ski is lifted. If you truly want to have your son progress, he should do the phantom move until it is second nature and until in race training he is able to pick up his inside ski at will in every arc.

Your son's stance is wide be cause he needs it to aid balance and he needs to weight the inside ski because he has not trained himself to (can't) balance on one ski.

The path to progress for him is very simple and someone as athletic as he is will have no trouble learning this. But it won't happen unless he does the phantom move constantly for the better part of a season. As we have said to many beginning PMTS students, get book one and start with the first page of the first chapter and progress through the book. If you do this he will make great progress. If you don't it will be more of the same.

[Ancient]

If you want the kids to be fast you gotta get them off the inside foot.

Do you see any improvement in this aspect?

Ancient what do you see in this frame? Where is the balance?

Max, if you take these frames, it looks to me that the balance is on the outside ski:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... 2688049762

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... 6772599586

Concerning the initial part of the turn, it seems to me that an inside/fore projection of the torso is involved which has little to do with the balancing over inside or outside ski, or I am completely wrong in terms of PMTS Technique?

@ JBotti: I believe you're right, my kid has been trained with the phantom move by his coaches but probably not so often and therefore not sufficiently.

Cheers.

Ancient

[geoffda]

If you want the kids to be fast you gotta get them off the inside foot.

Ancient what do you see in this frame? Where is the balance?

Max, if you take these frames, it looks to me that the balance is on the outside ski:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... 2688049762

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... 6772599586

Concerning the initial part of the turn, it seems to me that an inside/fore projection of the torso is involved which has little to do with the balancing over inside or outside ski, or I am completely wrong in terms of PMTS Technique?

@ JBotti: I believe you're right, my kid has been trained with the phantom move by his coaches but probably not so often and therefore non sufficiently.

Cheers.

Ancient

No, he is clearly on his inside ski. Look at the snow that is coming off the inside ski versus the lack of snow on coming off the outside ski as well as the depth of the track on the inside ski which is clearly deeper. Moreover, consider where his center of mass is with respect to his skis. The inside ski is almost directly underneath him which practically demands that the balance goes there. This is the visual demonstration for why it is so important to start with a narrow stance if you want to learn how to balance on your outside ski. You just can't do it with a wide stance that allows the inside ski to become a crutch and prevents you from transitioning without a push.

The initial part of the turn is where balance is especially critical. The ability to establish balance on the outside ski at the earliest possible moment in the turn is the litmus test for good skiing. Good skiers do not "project" their torso anywhere because that involves pushing themselves out of balance in the most critical part of the turn. Generally, if you push off to move into the turn, you end up with your balance on the inside ski, like Tomi. The wide stance both encourages the push off and encourages balancing on the inside ski.

Good skiers build energy in the turn so that when they release, the forces tend to pull them immediately into the next turn. This is not "projection" and there is no pushing off. Great skiers are able to handle these forces such that they still are able to establish outside ski balance very early in the turn.

You can easily investigate our analysis for yourself. See what happens when you ask him to lift his inside ski in the turn.

[Max_501]

Geoff's post is right on the money.

Ancient here is a thread to help you on this point: Check Point 1. Lift Inside PMTS, Essentials

[Ancient]

Moreover, consider where his center of mass is with respect to his skis. The inside ski is almost directly underneath him which practically demands that the balance goes there.

It seems to me that this comment also applies to this frame from the video Harald Harb's Miracle Movement:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... rald_Harb#

Don't you think so? Or maybe my ability to analyse body posture and stance is failing?

Ancient

[Max_501]

It seems to me that this comment also applies to this frame from the video Harald Harb's Miracle Movement:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... rald_Harb#

Don't you think so? Or maybe my ability to analyse body posture and stance is failing?

Ancient, the frame you pulled of Harald is completely different than the images of Tommi. This is a difficult angle to MA and really not the best example but the clues are the narrow stance, the butt almost touching the snow, the hip is well to the inside of the right foot, and there is a large amount of CB; therefore we can deduce that the balance over the outside ski.

My suggestion is that you stop trying to find images that justify Tommi's wide stance and instead work to narrow his stance as shown in the images in the Check Point 1. Lift Inside PMTS, Essentials thread.

[jbotti]

Moreover, consider where his center of mass is with respect to his skis. The inside ski is almost directly underneath him which practically demands that the balance goes there.

It seems to me that this comment also applies to this frame from the video Harald Harb's Miracle Movement:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... rald_Harb#

Don't you think so? Or maybe my ability to analyse body posture and stance is failing?

Ancient

Dude!! Come on!! Do you want help or do you want everyone to say that your son rips (and there is a forum where you will get that so you can post there). When you start stuff like this you are wasting everyone's time.

[geoffda]

Moreover, consider where his center of mass is with respect to his skis. The inside ski is almost directly underneath him which practically demands that the balance goes there.

It seems to me that this comment also applies to this frame from the video Harald Harb's Miracle Movement:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... rald_Harb#

Don't you think so? Or maybe my ability to analyse body posture and stance is failing?

Ancient

You are mistaken. Even from the image you pulled, you can see Harald's inside foot is well inside his CM and his inside leg is completely out of the way, so increasing his angles is possible. Tomi's inside foot is almost directly beneath his CM and his inside leg is still blocking his hips from being able to lower. Tomi's inside leg is functioning as a base of support and keeping him upright while he rides a bent inside ski and a straight outside ski. In Harald's case, he is riding a bent outside ski and what is keeping him upright is the forces that he is generating and balancing against.

[Ancient]

Dude!! Come on!! Do you want help or do you want everyone to say that your son rips (and there is a forum where you will get that so you can post there). When you start stuff like this you are wasting everyone's time.

I don't see any reason to be that aggressive; I'm not fishing for compliments since, as you know, I didn't get any, but I really want my sons improve their skiing according to PMTS method.

I agree there's a lot of room to improve the balance on the outside ski and I'll try in the remaining skiing days of the season to have them trying to lift in any part of the turn the inside ski; surely the Counteracting need to be addressed as well.

As far as Counterbalancing is concerned, it seems to me that Tommy is well on his way if I analyse correctly this frame that I posted before:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... 6772599586

Coming back to the balance on the outside ski I wanted to understand better what Geoffda said:

Tomi's inside foot is almost directly beneath his CM and his inside leg is still blocking his hips from being able to lower.

If the hips fall lower to the snow free of the inside leg I would imagine that the CM would move towards the inside leg unless enough counterbalance is applied, and that's what I see in Tommy's frame above. But, again, honestly I don't think of myself beeing enough skilled in MA, so your motivated evaluations are really appreciated.

Cheers.

Ancient

[BigE]

Tomi's inside foot is almost directly beneath his CM and his inside leg is still blocking his hips from being able to lower.

If the hips fall lower to the snow free of the inside leg I would imagine that the CM would move toward the inside leg unless enough counterbalance is applied, and that's what I see in Tommy's frame above. But, again, honestly I don't think of myself beeing enough skilled in MA, so your motivated evaluations are really appreciated.

There seems to be a misunderstanding of what counterbalance if you believe that is what is happening here. Counterbalance *demands* balancing on the outside ski. It's more than just creating an angle at the outside hip.

I recommend listening to Geoff.

[arothafel]

Unfortunately, young Tommi almost appears to be doing "outriggers."

Seems to me phantoms and javelins would clear this right up in a hurry.

And, instead of posting race video or carved turns, why not post a video of Tommi and your other son performing some drills like phantoms and javelins -- or any of the drills in book one.

Then, this group could be super helpful in your quest to improve both your sons and their skiing.

[Max_501]

The answer you seek starts on page 1 of book 1

These posts are from Oct 2012. Good info here:

Tommi is a little ripper!! He's doing a lot right (especially for a 5 year old). The one improvement that he can make instantly that will set him aprt from others his age and older is moving his feet and skis closer together. Youngsters tend to rely more on a wide stance for balance. He clearly has the ability to ski with a tighter stance. This allows and promotes PMTS movements better. I am going to guess that his coaches may disagree with this.

x2. Plus he needs to learn to tip his old stance (outside at transition) foot to little-toe-edge. I have the same problem with my son. Part of the trouble is that they just don't have the hip width and all kids skis are relatively wide, so even small amounts of space between the skis translates to big stance issues. The issue that Tommi has with his stance is that he is skiing with his feet wider than his hips. This means that he can't really tip his feet effectively which causes problems both with trying to release the ski as well as trying to engage the new edges. Right now, he is pushing against the big toe edge of the downhill ski to give himself a platform to extend the old free (inside at transition) leg in order to move his hips into the turn. His angles come from this extension, but at times his balance is off and he pushes himself onto his inside ski (which he has to steer to catch himself). As long as he is pushing off and extending in transition, he will be blocked from tipping his feet. Also, when you push off at transition, it causes the ski to break away in firm conditions. These are really classic problems and are the opposite of PMTS movements.

This is almost identical to how my son was skiing at that age. Unfortunately, if you don't get his stance narrowed and get him off the big-toe edge at transition soon, it may be hard to change his skiing. As good as this skiing looks (and this is a very talented kid), this is not PMTS skiing. In PMTS skiing the movements of release, transfer and engagement all start with the feet. Specifically, we always focus on tipping the old stance (outside at transition) foot from big-toe-edge to little-toe-edge (and continuing the tipping throughout the turn). We flex our knees to release the ski and we tip onto new edges while the ski is light. When we release, the energy from the previous turn helps move us into the new turn. We never try to push ourselves into the new turn; instead we balance at the top of the arc and use that time to get ourselves organized to handle the pressure when it comes to us.

Try to get him to narrow his stance and teach him the Phantom Move. If you have him touch his stance boot with the edge of the ski that he is lifting and tipping, it will give him a good external cue for managing his stance. Have him finish the turn on the little-toe-edge of his old free (inside at transition) foot so that when he lifts and tips the old stance (outside at transition) foot, it will trigger a release of the old turn. The tipping actions of the Phantom Move at this point, combined with the forces of the released turn, will allow his center of mass to move naturally into the new turn.

and I wrote this from another MA thread which should help you with Tommi AFTER you have worked through book 1:

I've noticed a trend where skiers are working on carving before they have mastered inside foot management. This leads to a variety of symptoms that all relate back to the lack of inside foot management.

Work on the Super phantom with touch-tilt:

As in a regular super phantom, transfer balance to LTE of the uphill ski. Then, touch the inside edge of the lifted, dowhnill ski to the inside ankle rivet of the stance boot ("arch touches ankle"). Keep it touching while tipping the free foot further toward its LTE. Don't let that free foot touch the snow until the very end of the turn. VERY IMPORTANT STEP! At the end of the turn, when the free foot touches the snow on its LTE, immediately pick up the new free foot, and touch-tilt the new stance boot.

When learning, you can begin with keeping the tip of the free ski on the snow, but the goal is to keep the whole ski lifted throughout the turn which is a true test of the skier's ability to balance on the outside ski.

Reread the Free Foot Management section of Book 2 to be sure you know what to look for when working on this. Start with the Pole Press drill (pages 68 - 69 of book 2) so you have a good understanding of the muscular effort needed to hold the free foot against the stance boot.

[Ancient]

I took good note of all of yours suggestion and let's see if I succeed in the near future in having my sons step into another level in PMTS skiing.

Thank you very much.

Ancient

[go_large_or_go_home]

I took good note of all of yours suggestion and let's see if I succeed in the near future in having my sons step into another level in PMTS skiing.

Thank you very much.

Ancient

I have to ask, have you even read any of HH's books, watched the DVD's or even read his blog? If you had, you wouldn't have started this thread..there is a photo on HH's blog of a 7yr old running a 'stubby' slalom course looking like a World Cup skier. That is how your son should/ would ski like if you were serious about progressing him as a skier. The advantage is that it will take your skiing to a higher level AND improve your own MA and appreciation for the dedication/ devotion it takes to master the movements of PMTS skiing. Don't waste your, your sons or anybody else's time with playing around with Pmts....do it properly and get stuck in...