MA for young Tommi

Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby RRT » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:19 pm

RRT, as far as I know there are no PMTS camps or instructors based here in Italy, otherwise I would have resorted for.


Ancient, are you not relatively close to Hintertux, Austria or is that not a reasonable option?
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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Ancient » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:17 pm

RRT wrote:
Ancient, are you not relatively close to Hintertux, Austria or is that not a reasonable option?


I'll think about it but, apart from the distance from Milan, I believe that the language would be an insuperable obstacle: my kids speak an elementary english and they are not able to understand english skiing instruction.

Cheers.

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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Ancient » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:42 am

Dear all,

I worked with Tommi's brother Andrea to improve some PMTS movements but I'm not sure about the results: would you please give an eye and express your opinion?

A sequence of pictures is available here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1035879170 ... OyiYiGgwE#

Your opinion is always welcome.

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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby geoffda » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:18 pm

The thing that really stands out in these photos is that Tommi is still focused on the big-toe-edge. You can see that many of his turns develop into wedges and tip-crossing situations. This is happening because his first movement is to try to get grip on his new stance foot by rolling it onto big-toe-edge. If you roll onto the big-toe-edge first, that ski is going to try to turn and if the little-toe-edge tipping of the inside ski lags, the tips will cross. Moreover, typically, rolling to big-toe-edge will include a push that causes the tail of the flattened inside ski to slide away, creating the wedge.

Wide stance is also contributing here. Watch any recent winner in Men's World Cup slalom and you will see that they all have very narrow stances. The reason for this is simple. From a narrow stance, the simple movement of tipping the inside foot to little-toe-edge (while flexing) will move the inside hip laterally beyond the base of support, allowing the center of mass to freely move inside the turn and the hips to drop downwards, allowing angles to develop. As the center of mass moves into the turn, the outside ski is pulled onto big-toe-edge and it will naturally grip as tipping continues.

With a stance that has the feet outside the head of the femurs, the leg shafts are forming a triangle. Even if Tommi were tipping the inside foot to little-toe-edge to start the turn (which he is not), his stance width would prevent the hip from being able to move outside the base of support. Because his center of mass is blocked from moving into the turn, Tommi's only choice is to push off the big-toe-edge of the new stance foot to get the turn going. He doesn't have the option of simply releasing his skis to start the new turn.

Tommi is skiing the way many typical FIS racers end up skiing. Big-toe focused, and pushing off. He's clearly athletic enough to make it work at his level, but the best skiers in the world do not ski this way. The top men's slalom skiers have all figured out the importance of narrow stance and focusing on little-toe-edge. Mikaela Shiffrin does the same thing on the women's side and she is virtually unbeatable in slalom when she is on top of her game.

What we are trying to convey is a completely different way of skiing that only works if all of the movements are available and working together in concert. To get there Tommi would need to totally reinvent his skiing. This isn't a piecemeal thing and it can't be added on to what he is currently doing. We are talking about literally starting over and learning how to ski a whole new way.

Do you understand just how radical the changes are that we are suggesting? If I were coaching Tommi, I'd pull him out of competition for a significant period of time to make this transition. He'd spend weeks learning how to ski all over again before he even had a chance to train gates, let alone compete. Since this thread was created, Tommi's skiing remains fundamentally the same. We've been telling you the same things for years now, but nothing has changed. Why do you keep asking us what we think? Clearly, Tommi's coaches aren't teaching him PMTS principles so it seems highly unlikely that he will develop into the kind of skier that we would produce. If you are posting because you don't like the results you are getting from Tommi's coaches and believe that PMTS will make him into the kind of skier you had hoped him to be, then you need to get serious. Start with Anybody Can Be An Expert Skier 1 and work through that. Then Book 2. Then Essentials of Skiing. If you want to start this process, we'll be more than happy to give you feedback and help as you rebuild Tommi's skiing. Ideally, put up some video of the drills or exercises as you work through them, along with a free skiing run where Tommi tries to demonstrate the movements from the drills in his skiing. If you do that, we can help. But continuing to put up racing footage isn't going to be beneficial. Gates are the last place he should be as he works through the process. While it would be ideal to keep him from racing, there may be all sorts of reasons why that isn't practical. Just understand that you don't develop skiing in the gates and that his results will likely suffer during this process. In any event, we're clearly going around in circles with the race footage approach. At this point, I think the only way this thread can continue is if you put up footage showing Tommi actually trying to develop a specific movement in his skiing and let us give you feedback on that.
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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby go_large_or_go_home » Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:50 pm

go_large_or_go_home wrote:
Tommi has great potential, but is being held back by your resistance.


The longer that he skis this way, the harder it will be for him to change. This is no joke, you are condemning him to a life of skiing mediocrity. Make the chages now before its too late..
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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Ancient » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:57 am

First of all, thanks Geoffda and Go_large_or_go_home for you evaluation.

Second, the kid in the pictures sequence is not Tommi but, as I mentioned, his older (12 years old) brother Andrea.
As I mentioned in previous posts this year, since I'm still injured with a broken femur that prevents me from skiing, the only ski teaching to my kids is their coaches' ones and I'm just trying to do my best to show them PMTS videos and analysis from PMTS forum and Blog. Therefore these are the only footages that I have of my kids skiing.
But coming back to this pictures sequence I see some:

- O Frame legs;
- weighted release;
- flex to release turns;
- counterbalance;

although there are some rotations in some turns and at the end of the day the results are insufficient. But we are working on it with the above mentioned limited possibilities and, if you don't mind, I would really appreciate your contribution any time I believe there is something to show you although my MA skill could fail.

Thanks again.

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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Kiwi » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:21 am

In the interests of everyone I think this thread should be closed and not resurrected. There is nothing to be gained from flogging a dead horse.
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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby DougD » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:30 am

Kiwi wrote:In the interests of everyone I think this thread should be closed and not resurrected. There is nothing to be gained from flogging a dead horse.

+1
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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Max_501 » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:52 am

Ancient wrote:...although there are some rotations in some turns and at the end of the day the results are insufficient. But we are working on it with the above mentioned limited possibilities and, if you don't mind, I would really appreciate your contribution any time I believe there is something to show you although my MA skill could fail.


For MA the goal is to identify the single most important movement (SMIM). In this case that would be similar to what we have suggested in the past, which is working to create balance over the outside ski. Basically page 1 of book 1 is the best place to start because the skiers need to develop a rock solid super phantom.

Unfortunately its impossible to develop proper movements while running gates. It has to be done during drill time on relatively mild slopes. Running gates before proper movements have been developed creates strong bad habits that are difficult to change later.
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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Ancient » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:37 am

Max_501 wrote:For MA the goal is to identify the single most important movement (SMIM). In this case that would be similar to what we have suggested in the past, which is working to create balance over the outside ski. Basically page 1 of book 1 is the best place to start because the skiers need to develop a rock solid super phantom.

Unfortunately its impossible to develop proper movements while running gates. It has to be done during drill time on relatively mild slopes. Running gates before proper movements have been developed creates strong bad habits that are difficult to change later.


Thanks Max_501,

we'll try our best.

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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby geoffda » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:27 pm

Ancient wrote:First of all, thanks Geoffda and Go_large_or_go_home for you evaluation.

Second, the kid in the pictures sequence is not Tommi but, as I mentioned, his older (12 years old) brother Andrea.
As I mentioned in previous posts this year, since I'm still injured with a broken femur that prevents me from skiing, the only ski teaching to my kids is their coaches' ones and I'm just trying to do my best to show them PMTS videos and analysis from PMTS forum and Blog. Therefore these are the only footages that I have of my kids skiing.
But coming back to this pictures sequence I see some:

- O Frame legs;
- weighted release;
- flex to release turns;
- counterbalance;

although there are some rotations in some turns and at the end of the day the results are insufficient. But we are working on it with the above mentioned limited possibilities and, if you don't mind, I would really appreciate your contribution any time I believe there is something to show you although my MA skill could fail.

Thanks again.

Ancient


Sorry Ancient (and sorry to hear about your injury),

I misunderstood the wording of your post. Yes, there were some frames of Andrea's skiing that were showing some good things. I didn't call them out because as long as the focus is on the big toe, the benefits of making those movements are somewhat limited. Big-toe-focused skiing compromises balance, grip and ski performance. PMTS movements put the focus on the little-toe-edge precisely to avoid those problems. As an example: flexing to release combined with tipping allows us to change edges without pushing against our skis (which undermines our balance and potentially breaks the ski loose). If you flex to start the release, but you then immediately roll onto big toe edge, you've just undone all of the good things that flexing to release would have created for you. You are going to push and you are going to disrupt your balance. Athletic skiers with exceptional touch can minimize the effects of doing this, but with our approach there is no damage to undo. It isn't enough to try to plug the movements into existing skiing; the paradigm has to change.

As to MA, I'm certainly willing to provide it, but I'd hope to see some results (and I'd assume you would want to see that too :) ). Our skiing never gets better when we get in the gates, and we certainly can't develop it there. Where MA can be very effective is if you have the kids do some work and shoot some video both of the drills and the free skiing. If you submit that for MA, we can: 1) give you feedback on whether the drills are being done correctly 2) give you feedback on whether the kids have effectively integrated what they were working on in their skiing 3) give you feedback on additional improvements to make and drills to work on. If you do that, we can give you real help in coaching the kids.
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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Ancient » Sat Feb 28, 2015 1:31 am

geoffda wrote: Yes, there were some frames of Andrea's skiing that were showing some good things. I didn't call them out because as long as the focus is on the big toe, the benefits of making those movements are somewhat limited.

As to MA, I'm certainly willing to provide it, but I'd hope to see some results (and I'd assume you would want to see that too :) ). Our skiing never gets better when we get in the gates, and we certainly can't develop it there. Where MA can be very effective is if you have the kids do some work and shoot some video both of the drills and the free skiing. If you submit that for MA, we can: 1) give you feedback on whether the drills are being done correctly 2) give you feedback on whether the kids have effectively integrated what they were working on in their skiing 3) give you feedback on additional improvements to make and drills to work on. If you do that, we can give you real help in coaching the kids.


Many thanks Geoffda

at least I feel relieved that I'm not the only one to see some good things in Andrea's skiing: we put a lot of efforts in reaching these results. I understood well the issue of the big toe push and we'll try to work on it, but as you know the only thing I can do for this season is to work on showing my kids videos and trying to explain them the theoretical part of the problem since the only ski coaching they receive is the one from their coaches because of my injury.
I want to let you know that we really want so hard to learn PMTS technique and we'll do our best to succeed and hopefully next season (this one is over for me) we'll be able to practice PMTS drills and show you some good results.
In the meantime, I thank you all again.

Cheers.

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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Max_501 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:00 am

You can help the kids work on PMTS fundamentals during the off season with a slantboard.

This link will take you through all 13 episodes of the youtube slantboard training videos HH created.

PMTS - Dryland Training with a Slantboard
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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Ancient » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:17 am

Max_501 wrote:You can help the kids work on PMTS fundamentals during the off season with a slantboard.

This link will take you through all 13 episodes of the youtube slantboard training videos HH created.

PMTS - Dryland Training with a Slantboard


Thanks Max_501,

I take good note also of your suggestion and we'll try to practice it although in summer my kids practice windsurfing: this is Andrea with 40 knots of wind:



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Re: MA for young Tommi

Postby Max_501 » Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:22 am

Ancient wrote:I take good note also of your suggestion and we'll try to practice it although in summer my kids practices windsurfing...


Looks like fun and might help with snowboarding but hard to see the cross over to ski racing! If the kids want to be competitive racers they need a decent amount of ski focused dryland training during the off season. Even better if they can get on skis a few times each month.
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