MA for Carl

Re: MA for Carl

Postby jepoupatout » Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:21 pm

A good exemple of the forces used for the new turn, you can check the latest images from HH on his blog today in the high C :the three images in yellow suit. Amazing
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby Max_501 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:14 am

Carl, excellent job of flexing the inside leg and getting the inside foot out of the way! If you worked on inside foot tipping so it kept up with the inside leg flexion you would have more control over the turn. As it is, the inside foot gets out of the way and then the hips fall into the new turn (this is what others are seeing as hip dumping), with the inside foot following rather than leading the hips.

On a gentle slope work on inside foot tipping range of motion. Keep in mind that flexing will increase the tipping range of motion.

Also work on pulling the inside foot back and holding it closer to the stance boot/leg to increase balance and help minimize falling onto the inside ski.
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby Matt » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:30 am

Max_501 wrote:
jclayton wrote:At the speed Carl is skiing in an edge locked carve and the steepness I would say that without a large ROM on flexion to absorb the forces one would be thrown out of control . AKA a Helluva release !


Heluva release is not caused by range of flexion.

NOTE - we don't flex to absorb the forces, we use those forces for the new turn!

Right on target Max. I'm lying in bed with the flu reading essentials, and on page 97 exactly this is discussed.
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby Robert » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:47 am

Hi Carl,

I can’t claim to have perfected the art of skiing myself and I’m not an experienced MA appraiser, so you might need to take all this with a grain of salt, but I’m sure that others will provide correction if I’m heading you in the wrong direction.

I hope this comes across as a serious effort to spot and crucial areas and not as a go at criticizing someone else’s skiing that actually has a lot of good things going for it. So her is my go at it. I tried to imagine I’m making those turns and wonder what I would try to do, to make the most dramatic change.



First – what looks to me like the SMI area to work on. Initial appearance is there is lots of edge carving going on and lots of counter. Lots of things look pretty good. But something is not quite right as outside ski is unpredictable especially in left hand turns, the ski position is fixed in a very permanent open position, often forcing you to the inside ski and body position through early part of turn is actually out of kilter


The things (I reckon) I’m seeing.
1) Your biggest problem is that you are not creating any Counter BALANCE at the critical phase when you or coming through transition and just beginning the next turn (the body/slope relationship that is ( I think) referred to by Harald as being “upside down on the slope”). In fact I can’t see much counter balance used at all, except for from the - middle of the turn - where it naturally seems to look like there is more than there realy is because there is lots of counter acting, but there is some here I think probably initiated by body angulation in a counter balanced way, really as a result of skiing into it.

To be more exact, at the time you are transitioning you must pass through a “neutral everything” phase – since the body position you had in the last turn is now going to be completely reversed through the next turn to the opposite side. So at transition as you release, and knees flex up (even with dynamic release) skiis come through flat, shoulders and hips come square, boots come through side by side alignment. At any sort of speed this is the briefest of moments so it is really critical that body position here is “dynamically” moving straight into the ideal positions for the instance the new turn is beginning from the flexed position. As you begin the next turn the body must already be moving into CB. Without deliberate CB here you can’t tip early, and you can’t tip fast, or enough, to make tipping the real initiating cause of the turn. CA also has to be starting to happen so it develops properly (I mention your RH hip later) . CB & CB doesn’t have to be dramatic but it absolutely has to be there. If it isn’t done in this instance it is too late to get the top part of the turn right, and the body positions and angles through the whole turn are compromised (as Harald has shown a number of times in montages) . To me this is the key for you. In the brief moment where you come through transition you must be acutely aware that you are already starting to lead your body into counter balance and counteracting, but particularly counter balance for you, thinking of squeezing the waist laterally WHILST the boots are still aligned together in transition , and you keep tipping and counter balancing as much as you can, going absolutely straight ahead in the same line, boots still aligned UNTIL the action of your tipping starts the turn changing direction. If you held this till then, the body position through the turn would be much better as would the ski carve and dynamics. In fact you would be forced to change your whole dynamics by not allowing yourself to compromise on this critical part.

To me it seems that if CB isn’t established very decisively as one of the first actions in moving from transition into the new turn I never get the chance to develop it properly through the turn and it makes a huge difference to edge hold, stability and body angles.

Also (and I actually have this problem and have been working on it) I think one of your hips is possibly permanently a bit out of alignment. It looks like your right hip is a bit forward naturally which means that if all else is the same, you naturally have better CA when making a RH turn (ie RH hip forward) , but when making a LH turn your CA is naturally compromised since the RH hip is still actually leading at the beginning of the turn and this I think contributes to the stance ski slipping away on the LH turns.

OK well! Now we find out hopefully if anybody can affirm or otherwise correct these observations and suggestions. :oops: :lol:

Regards Robert
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby jclayton » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:36 am

I wrote ;
“A good release here would result in the knees into the chest .”

Max 501
“why “

Actually this was a bit of a throwaway line , not very technical or helpful . What I meant to say was that Carl was not flexing enough to release and that a flex in those conditions would be a noticeable one .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Max_501 wrote:
jclayton wrote:
At the speed Carl is skiing in an edge locked carve and the steepness I would say that without a large ROM on flexion to absorb the forces one would be thrown out of control . AKA a Helluva release !

Heluva release is not caused by range of flexion.

NOTE - we don't flex to absorb the forces, we use those forces for the new turn!
Right on target Max. I'm lying in bed with the flu reading essentials, and on page 97 exactly this is discussed.Matt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Max 501
“Heluva release is not caused by range of flexion.”

I was actually using Helluvas crash ( now known as a " Helluva release ) as an example of being thrown out of control . In his case , if I remember ,it was due to mistiming of the release or being off balance at the crucial moment . A large range of movement would be a result , not a cause .

Max 501
“NOTE - we don't flex to absorb the forces, we use those forces for the new turn! “

I don’t think my comment on ROM and flexion was out of place ,
Essentials p97
“In transition ,the energy from the bent ski is held by the muscles of the legs and torso . While your muscles are storing the energy from the previous turn , your skis are floating over the surface “

i.e. the forces caused by the energy of the bent ski are absorbed ( stored ) and held as potential energy as the body floats . I was not suggesting a deliberate flexion but that relaxation resulted in a flexion . The greater the forces , the greater the range of movement needed to absorb them/store them as energy , otherwise an up move would be a necessary result of keeping rigid legs causing inneficiency or difficulty in the correct redirection into the next turn .
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby jclayton » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:21 pm

Max 501 asked the question " what do you think about when making the turns below " referring to the first video .

The answer would , I think , help my appraisal . This video , on closer examination , shows better Hi C engagement than the following two . In those videos it appears that the edges are changed with an upright stance instead of a flexed leg release stance and the new edges are pushed on rather than engaged during the float .
Maybe a particular aspect of technique is being tried . This often leads to a rather mechanical , forced appearance which I have interpreted as hip dumping . Also a divergence of the skis is often apparent .

In the first video it looks like the left hand turns are better counterbalanced and the hips more level . this aspect looks better in the following two videos , maybe this is what he is concentrating on .

Hi Robert . I have been looking a bit more closely at these videos , often first impressions are misleading .
What you call unpredictable movements of the outside ski could be just a product of hard snow a steep slope and high speed . By open position do you mean wide , or divergent ? If it is wide you will notice that in many turns the skis come together at transition and separate at the fall line but often there is weight on the inside ski .

I think there is a lot of CB and CA , as I mention above , the hips , mainly on the left turns , are nicely level . Maybe it gets away from Carl at times , possibly late pole prep .

Regarding the hip it is actually more efficient in terms of increasing tipping right to the end to release into a countered hip then counter the other way , but being careful not to leave it too long and end up leaning into the nest turn . At the end of some of Carls left turns he does this but not accompanied by the extra tipping , less so on the right turns .

Even Harald admits to a better side , many if us have some difference . I personally realized this winter after having some photos taken that I had been favouring one hip resulting in being later and later starting the CB .

By the way part of the exercise is for us to have a go at MA for our own edification , if we don't make mistakes then we are probably not learning .
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby Max_501 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:12 pm

jclayton wrote:The greater the forces , the greater the range of movement needed to absorb them/store them as energy , otherwise an up move would be a necessary result of keeping rigid legs causing inneficiency or difficulty in the correct redirection into the next turn .


Remember, if the outside leg flexes to release (even 1mm) there isn't an up movement from a PMTS point of view.

So, if a skier is flexing to release (even 1mm), how do we know if more flexion is needed? One place to look is during and right after the transition. Is the skier getting bucked all over the place because the virtual bump is tossing them around?
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby Max_501 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:21 pm

Just to give you a heads up, the MA I posted for Carl was written after a discussion I had with Jay.
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby jclayton » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:59 am

Max 501 :
"Remember, if the outside leg flexes to release (even 1mm) there isn't an up movement from a PMTS point of view.

So, if a skier is flexing to release (even 1mm), how do we know if more flexion is needed? One place to look is during and right after the transition. Is the skier getting bucked all over the place because the virtual bump is tossing them around? "

I think I see what you're getting at , that a small amount of flexion is often enough . Maybe I am seing things too one dimensionally .

You think maybe I am reading too much into Carls movements , seeing hip dumping etc ?
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby Max_501 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:00 am

Here's the MA that I wrote after Jay and I spoke about Carl's first video. I think it touches on why some here are seeing hip dumping.

Max_501 wrote:Carl, excellent job of flexing the inside leg and getting the inside foot out of the way! If you worked on inside foot tipping so it kept up with the inside leg flexion you would have more control over the turn. As it is, the inside foot gets out of the way and then the hips fall into the new turn (this is what others are seeing as hip dumping), with the inside foot following rather than leading the hips.

On a gentle slope work on inside foot tipping range of motion. Keep in mind that flexing will increase the tipping range of motion.

Also work on pulling the inside foot back and holding it closer to the stance boot/leg to increase balance and help minimize falling onto the inside ski.
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby jclayton » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:40 am

I thought that was pretty accurate when I saw it .

What I tend to do is see a result , a rather awkward hip action ( it still looks that way to me ) , and look for a cause , which is not so easy .
So you are saying that the hip action is not bad but more foot pull back and progressive tipping with the nside ski would improve it ?

In the 2nd and 3rd videos I see a push on the edges at engagement , maybe this impression also is just not enough tipping at the beginning ?
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby Max_501 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:52 am

Look at the prescription in the MA above. Work on tipping with flexing and the inside foot will lead the hip (the result is no hip dumping). Add in free foot management and you've got some ripping turns.
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby jclayton » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:47 pm

O.K.
You have cleared up another misconception I had . When you talked about the inside foot leading or following the hip I was thinking in terms of fore-aft . I see now that you mean leading in tipping action , so the hip falls inside as a result of more tipping .

When skiing do you consciously feel this lead ?
Watching Harald and the better skiers this is what makes it look so smooth I guess .
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby Max_501 » Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:24 pm

jclayton wrote:When skiing do you consciously feel this lead [the inside foot tipping leading the inside hip into the new turn]?


I focus on tipping the inside foot as much as possible. I don't think about the hip moving down to the snow because it gets there as a result of other movements.
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Re: MA for Carl

Postby BigE » Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:27 am

Max_501 wrote:Look at the prescription in the MA above. Work on tipping with flexing and the inside foot will lead the hip (the result is no hip dumping). Add in free foot management and you've got some ripping turns.


In other words: from a narrowed stance, tip the inside foot and flex the inside leg to start the turn.
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