MA of my 8 year old son...

Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby Max_501 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:54 pm

Max_501 wrote:Which of the PMTS books/DVDs do you have at home? It will help us refer you to specific areas for future drills.

A tip for future video...if possible stand about half way down the run and then video as he ski towards you and then past you. Get at least 5 turns of the front and of the back. Make use of the zoom and OIS features if you have them.


Also, see HH's earlier post on stance width.
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby jimgrossman » Sat Dec 31, 2011 11:18 am

Thoughts, comments, suggestions? Thanks!
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby HeluvaSkier » Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:11 pm

Jim,
I think others would agree; but I stand by the MA that I provided on the first page of this thread. In the most recent footage I don' see evidence that work has been done in the areas that were noted by Harald, Max, and I in several posts already. When I watch the recent skiing, I see basically the same movement patterns albeit slightly more refined - but still the same movements.
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby jbotti » Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:52 pm

I agree with Helluva. Your son has good feet and has little else working that we call essential. His upper body does next to nothing to support what he is doing with his feet, his stance is way too wide and his transitions are unprecise, and he is weighting the inside ski way too much and it is his default move.

If you want to make progress, start with Book One ACBAES and the first thing Harald talks about is moving the skis closer together and skiing with a tighter stance. Look at todays WC skiers no one is skiing with a stance anywhere close to that wide.

Maybe the question to ask is whether you can see what everyone here sees.
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby BigE » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:05 pm

Your son should be able to lift the inside ski at any point in the turn. It's clear he'll be unable to do that.

I concur with everything that has been said about his skiing. I know that does not mean all that much here, but even I can tell dumping into the turn when I see it. This is not freestyle, please don't huck your meat downhill.

I was going to post a long response, but in reality, you can't fix what he's doing with short tips. The fix is systemic. At least read the essentials, and whatever you do, DO NOT TRANSLATE THE WORDS TO YOUR OWN. If you try to understand the book in it's terms, it will make sense. If you translate it to existing words of your own vocabulary, you'll be reading it as a justification of your own knowledge, and will learn nothing.
Last edited by BigE on Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:30 pm

h.harb wrote:His stance is artificial, far to wide for his body size and width. He's losing precious balance and "clean" carving with his skis in this stance width. The forces with this stance are not going through his out side leg, his weight is too far inside on the inside ski. His hips are too far back due to this stance. Wide stances make your hips ride low and squatty. Not good! Get him out of this as soon as possible or as he grows, he'll become dependent on this low hip.


and

h.harb wrote:The wide stance also makes his outside leg too stiff and locked. This doesn't allow him to make or use pressure control movements, (which includes tipping of the ankle and foot), with leg bending adjustments in the arc. This is a dangerous position and can really cause horrific falls as he gets bigger and older.
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby Ken » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:21 pm

you can't fix what he's doing with short tips. The fix is systemic
Most important. Try selling this to your son as something entirely new that will enable him to ski much, much better in the future (which is 100% true). He's an amazing skier as is, but the way he's skiing puts a ceiling on his eventual level. Work through the Essential book and DVDs step by step. You job is to make every new skill fun to learn, and get each one right. The hardest part is putting the old skills aside, but that's absolutely necessary.

One of Harald's teaching devices for the correct width stance is a dog-bone shaped car wash sponge. That is held easily between the ankles on moderate runs and can't cause a problem when dropped. Give him a reward for skiing a whole run without dropping the sponge, and a big reward for three consecutive runs without dropping it. Anytime you see his legs spread beyond parallel, you need to stop him on the hill and restart with legs parallel. This is the real parallel skiing, legs parallel, not just skis parallel. As said above, you two need to be able to lift the tail of the inside ski off the snow at any time in any turn (well, most turns), and this will indicate that you're correctly balanced over the outside ski. Don't just ski. Make drills fun and challenging. Challenge him on technique, not on terrain, although when he gets a new skill correct on easy terrain, move the drill for that skill to tougher terrain and have fun getting it right there, and right many times, not just a few. After the drilling, take him on challenging terrain where he must put his new skill to use. When he reverts to the old technique (or you do), stop, and restart with the new, proper technique. Don't let old technique mix with new technique.
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby jimgrossman » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:51 pm

I must be a 'glutton for punishment' to come back here for more, but as much as the comments here can be slightly irritating, I understand that you can't produce a pearl without first a grain of sand... And I hope, as I'm sure all father's do, that he will shine one day.

He works hard at improving his skiing, and I have to work equally hard with my hopefully brief and effective words of instruction. The comments I get here force me to question and reassess everything I thought I thought I knew about skiing. I appreciate that.



Fire away.

P.S. Good news is that I finally I have a video of me to expose to the ravages of this board, and in a course no less, where all of my age old bad habits come out in full form. Now you'll get to see what my son is up against with me as a roll model... Will try to transfer from DVD and post up here asap.

As always,

Enjoy!
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby Max_501 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:26 pm

Things to consider for MA:

Is the stance width appropriate for the size of the skier?
Does the release start by flexing the outside leg?
Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn?
Are the feet pulled back at transition?
Is the inside foot held back throughout the turn?
Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right?
Is the pelvis included in the CB/CA movement?
Strong inside arm?
Is the inside leg flexed as the turn progresses?
Does the outside leg extend naturally (no pushing) as the turn progresses?
Does LTE tipping of the inside foot continue throughout the turn?
Is the skier balanced over the outside ski?
Is there a pole touch and how is the movement and timing?
Alignment - watch the skis and knees carefully - does anything look like it needs go be tipped in or out?

Taking video for MA:

Stand about half way down the run. This depends on length of run and amount of terrain you can see. Generally I try to split the visible filming distance so I can get an equal number of turns from the front and back. Video at least 5 turns of the front, as the skier approaches, and then al least 5 turns from back, as the subject skis away. Pan smoothly as the subject passes keeping the skier in frame so we can see a side view. Use the zoom and OIS features if your camera has them. I suggest a max of 10x zoom which will help with image stability. If you need to exceed 10X zoom consider using a monopod.
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby HeluvaSkier » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:58 am

jimgrossman wrote:I must be a 'glutton for punishment' to come back here for more, but as much as the comments here can be slightly irritating, I understand that you can't produce a pearl without first a grain of sand... And I hope, as I'm sure all father's do, that he will shine one day.

He works hard at improving his skiing, and I have to work equally hard with my hopefully brief and effective words of instruction. The comments I get here force me to question and reassess everything I thought I thought I knew about skiing. I appreciate that.

P.S. Good news is that I finally I have a video of me to expose to the ravages of this board, and in a course no less, where all of my age old bad habits come out in full form. Now you'll get to see what my son is up against with me as a roll model... Will try to transfer from DVD and post up here asap.

As always,

Enjoy!


Well Jim - nothing is forcing you to "come back here for more" if you find this place that irritating.

You have a good skier here. His coordination and RoM is rare for any age, but he still demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of using his feet in the turn. Everything is generated by dropping the hip into the turn - which is a dead-end movement for a junior racer. He's never been taught to ski from a natural-width stance and balance on his stance ski. He has the ability to do it, there is no doubt about that. A week with the right direction and this little guy would be skiing at the level of a top J3. Kids this young will learn fast, and pick up a lot of it naturally, but you need to point him in the right direction. So far the video evidence suggests you're just doing the same things over and over, hoping the approach is going to keep working.

Based on the videos and photos you've put up and the comments you'ev made; I can come to only one conclusion: You as a coach, are maxed out. What is lacking in his skiing is actually your short coming as a coach. You find this place irritating because you can't see it and don't understand it. Unless you change your approach SIGNIFICANTLY and educate yourself beyond what you're reading in Ski Racing magazine and USSCA publications; your son will have to get his coaching else where, or figure it out for himself once he is old enough to do so - something that is too often the case for talented youngsters - and why many of them stagnate quickly. In the last year, from what you've shown us, there is already a sign of stagnation in your son's skiing. He isn't improving from a technical perspective; just refining the technique he's been using all along. That's a bad sign for a kid this young.

He's a great little skier, and I think he has the potential to be REALLY great. Don't be the reason that he never gets there.
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Re: MA of my 8 year old son...

Postby BigE » Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:00 am

Max_501 wrote:Things to consider for MA:

Is the stance width appropriate for the size of the skier?
Does the release start by flexing the outside leg?
Does LTE tipping lead engagement to the new turn?
Are the feet pulled back at transition?
Is the inside foot held back throughout the turn?
Is there enough CB and CA and is the timing right?
Is the pelvis included in the CB/CA movement?
Strong inside arm?
Is the inside leg flexed as the turn progresses?
Does the outside leg extend naturally (no pushing) as the turn progresses?
Does LTE tipping of the inside foot continue throughout the turn?
Is the skier balanced over the outside ski?
Is there a pole touch and how is the movement and timing?


FWIW: I say 'no' to all of these.

Perhaps jimgrossman should post what he's been telling Buey?
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