MA for oggy

MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:43 am

Hi all,

looking to borrow your pair of eyes to help me find the areas where I need improving the most. I've been skiing for a long time, but I'm relatively new to PMTS, first having found the link on Peter Keelty's site in December, and then getting the Essentials book about a month ago. I'm not working on any specific exercises/essentials in the video, all that was going through my head at the time was "flex, tip and pull back, tip and pull back, tip and pull back". Generally trying to change my transition from extension to flexing, and trying to eliminate wedge entries and A-frames.

This was recorded yesterday, so it should be representative of my current skiing. Wet spring snow, moderately steep pitch, skiing on Atomic Nomad Blackeyes (17m radius, 79mm underfoot).

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Re: MA for oggy

Postby leopold_bloom » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:06 pm

Hello oggy,

You have a lot of good things happening in your skiing. It's good to see a free foot that is working independently of the stance foot. Overall, you are pretty well balanced and in control of the various elements. I don't see any major deficits that will stand in the way of progress. ED. Note: This just isn't true.

Just one comment on the video before we talk about how to progress your skiing. You chose to provide "real world" video for MA from what looks like a reasonably steep and slightly bumpy pitch. None of this gentle, sissy groomer stuff here. This makes analysis of your fundamental movements more difficult because, ultimately, terrain dictates movement.

Ed. note: This is just not the case, incorrect movements that are ingrained are easy hidden on easy slopes (unless you do specific PMTS exercises). The real skier shows up when it gets tough.

Have a look at the turns at about 8 seconds in where you fill the whole frame and you can see your feet. I notice that you swing your tails out a bit and they kick off a short burst of spray. The root cause of this problem happens during transition. It looks like you have all the best intentions in your transition. I see some signs of a flex to release move and your body starts to cross your skis smoothly. Unfortunately, you give up on these movements too early. You end up inclining into the centre of your turns and extending your legs. Early extension leads inevitably to skid because extension arrests your tipping action.

ED. note: Extension leads to loss of balance, leg steering, leg twisting, steering leads to skidding.

To keep tipping you need to do two things. First, when you flex you stance leg, continue to flex it even after it has become the free leg. Secondly, tip your hips opposite to your skis. You will need to be balanced over your outside ski to carve your way through the fall line. You can't get there by banking your whole body inside.

In short turns on a relatively steep pitch, your hips and your skis will take a different path down the hill. Your skis will cut a wider arc and your body will move more directly down the hill. You have this happening to a certain extent, it's just that the mechanics are not there. The difference between right and wrong is the difference between pushing your feet out away from you and allowing the skis to draw your feet out away from you.

At that moment when you give a little push and spray snow, you have to keep faith (which means keep flexing and tipping) and allow your skis to continue of their own accord on a wider arc. If you are rcentering as you approach the fall line, your skis will arc back under your body and provide a wild ride. If things don't turn out so well, it's probably fore/aft balance issues (usually a lack of re-centering).

Good luck!

Leo
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:59 pm

Hi Leo,

thanks for replying, your comments are insightful as always. I was already aware of the lack of CB, but extension part was eluding me. Looking in the slowmo of the bigger video at home, I can now see a sort of flex to release/start the turn - hold/extend through the fall line - flex at the bottom pattern of the free foot. Old habits are hard to kick...

leopold_bloom wrote:Just one comment on the video before we talk about how to progress your skiing. You chose to provide "real world" video for MA from what looks like a reasonably steep and slightly bumpy pitch. None of this gentle, sissy groomer stuff here. This makes analysis of your fundamental movements more difficult because, ultimately, terrain dictates movement.


Well yes, I was thinking that terrain that's close to the limit of my comfort zone should make flaws more apparent. What kind of slope would you recommend for short turn MA?

leopold_bloom wrote:At that moment when you give a little push and spray snow, you have to keep faith (which means keep flexing and tipping) and allow your skis to continue of their own accord on a wider arc. If you are rcentering as you approach the fall line, your skis will arc back under your body and provide a wild ride. If things don't turn out so well, it's probably fore/aft balance issues (usually a lack of re-centering).


Fore/aft is something I seem to be struggling with since I started trying the PMTS approach. Unless I'm very conscious about it I tend to end up in the back seat - which was reserved mostly for bumps and off piste in my "previous life" :wink: Guess it just takes time for all this stuff to sink in!
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby leopold_bloom » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:37 pm

Hello oggy,

If you aren't counter-balancing, inevitably you will have some extension. Extension is the recover mechanism for inclination. There is a moment in every turn where you have to rely on the skis engaging to save yourself from falling over. When you bank into the turn, this moment doesn't quite happen and you have to push your skis to get some pressure and pivot them to get them back under you.

I would prefer to see you ski on smooth (groomed) slopes with a steady pitch if you're looking for feedback on your technique. It gives you an opportunity to to link to together turns under uniform conditions. Pick a slope where you can ski a pure fall line (no side hill) for a bit and allow yourself to find your groove. I wasn't commenting on the pitch so much as the fact that it was a bit bumpy.

Leo
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby Max_501 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:33 pm

leopold_bloom wrote:Just one comment on the video before we talk about how to progress your skiing. You chose to provide "real world" video for MA from what looks like a reasonably steep and slightly bumpy pitch. None of this gentle, sissy groomer stuff here. This makes analysis of your fundamental movements more difficult because, ultimately, terrain dictates movement.


I thought we used the same movements regardless of terrain.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby leopold_bloom » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:26 am

Hello Max501,

You thought wrong. Let me give you an example.

A gate is set at the brink of an abrupt transition. The snow rolls off sharply below the gate right where you will be making the top half of the arc of the next turn. What do you do? Flex your legs as the technique would dictate or do you extend your legs?

I will extend my legs and stay in contact with the snow as much as I can because I am interested in making the next gate.
ED.Note: This has nothing to do with PMTS skiing or skiing that is being MA'd. This is just totally off track, MAx501 is absolutely correct in questioning this line of MA.

Here terrain has dictated a movement that is opposite the ideal pattern. Most likely the terrain has dictated different movements even before you reach the brink. I wouldn't want to launch off that brink with any heat on my skis and have to try to mule kick myself back inside so I will adjust my line to account for rolling off my edges and squaring up earlier. At the same point, in the same turn on flat snow, I would be concerned still with building counter and angles. Pretty much the opposite again.

There is a link back to the technique if you switch your frame of reference from movements to pressure management. In the above scenario you would make your best effort to manage the pressure to levels closer to the "ideal turn" that would occur on a uniform surface. You probably wouldn't succeed but this would be the strategy to stay in the course. From this perspective, it is fair to say that you are using the same technique but different movements.

In Oggy's case, the snow was a little bumpy and uneven. You can see how it affected his movement in a more subtle way. As I recall there was one turn where he jetted of a bump into the air. I fully support having fun in the bumps. And I will say with all sincerity that Oggy deserves style points for skiing that pitch and posting it for comment.

I just thought it would be easier to help him with the fundamentals of his skiing if he stuck to flat snow where his movements were all his own and not dictated by the terrain to any significant degree.

Leo
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby Max_501 » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:30 am

leopold_bloom wrote:You thought wrong. Let me give you an example.

A gate is set at the brink of an abrupt transition. The snow rolls off sharply below the gate right where you will be making the top half of the arc of the next turn. What do you do? Flex your legs as the technique would dictate or do you extend your legs?


While this is an interesting specific example it doesn't apply to the MA video. In general terrain should not dictate the technique (movements) used for making a turn.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby milesb » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:25 am

I gotta agree with Max501 here. This terrain is not terribly difficult for him, so it's very likely that his skiing issues are exactly the same on an easy groomer. Many PMTS students ski on terrain just like this in camps, and some on much more difficult terrain. And even if in reality the terrain DOES frequently dictate the movements, that is generally what we would call a "mistake"! Like Max501 sez, "..same movements regardless of terrain..", that is the goal.
If he was way overterrained, the video might not be worth as much for MA- BUT....one of the beautiful things about PMTS is that it's very cut and dry. You either are flexing to release or you aren't (1mm flexing is right, 1mm of extending is wrong- love that one! ), tipping or not, counterbalancing or not, etc. Then it's a matter of: "can you do more?" So as long as the skier keeps an open mind about what is possible, in other words no " NOBODY skis terrain like that without pivoting..." , there is still some value for community learning in evaluating the movements from a video like that.

That having been said, LB's analysis seemed perfect to me.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby leopold_bloom » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:55 am

Hello Milesb,

When you say "we would call that a mistake", I'm not sure for whom you speak but I wish all of you well in your quest to defy the laws of physics.
ED.Note: No one is defying the laws of physics here, why the fancy words, totally out of context?

Leo
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby h.harb » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:13 pm

Leo, Nice attempt, but I find your MA often over complicated, too wordy, and often vague. Sometimes reminds me of Big E early in his posting here.


MA: Three sentences.
Here Oggy shows a classic lean and rotation (steering), his extension is sometimes a more complicated, sophisticated version of a jet turn (letting the ski run forward) with a quick, power, two footed, late steering action, coming in to finish the turn. This leaves him low, square and out of balance to start the next arc. In his case it's a turn not an arc.


Remedy and correction:
The remedy is easy, keep knees flexed all the time, until you can keep you feet under your body and tip your boots from side to side. Lead all movements for releasing and engaging from the bottom of the kinetic chain, not with the upper body. Ground both your ski poles. Practice one footed releases on easy slopes, until you can transfer balance to the new stance ski before the falline. This will be challenging, because your normal start begins with a lean in and rotation of the the upper body. Leaning makes it very difficult to transfer to the new stance ski. You need to learn the CB Essential. When you get this move, it will give you more confidence on this terrain.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby h.harb » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:22 pm

LEO's MA:
You have a lot of good things happening in your skiing. It's good to see a free foot that is working independently of the stance foot. Overall, you are pretty well balanced and in control of the various elements. I don't see any major deficits that will stand in the way of progress.
Are you kidding, Oggy needs to revamp his approach. Sorry Oggy that you are the one caught in this MA, but hopefully it will turn out very beneficial for you.


And what is it with this beginning. I hate this stuff. It's so fake PSIA. This isn't PSIA and this forum surely isn't Epic, get to the point. This sounds like a Bob Barnes diatribe. What you just said here is an attempt to butter-up your student and has nothing to do with what he is doing or wants to learn. Everyone can see through this stuff.

Cut out the cheerleader stuff and get to the meat of the matter, where's the beef?
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby oggy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 5:27 pm

Hi Harald,

thanks a lot for replying. I don't mind any analysis of my skiing, harsh or not - I posted the video because I'm not content with the way I ski. I'm sure that Leo's intention was just to try and not bruise my ego too much by bringing some positive sides up first (and I can already see some improvements in my skiing, even after a rather short exposure to PMTS, and only through one book and a few YouTube clips). You both seem to agree that lack of CB is my biggest problem right now.

But to cut to the chase :) I have a question regarding your suggested remedies:

h.harb wrote:The remedy is easy, keep knees flexed all the time, until you can keep you feet under your body and tip your boots from side to side


I don't understand the "feet under body" part: is this in relation to the fore/aft balance? Or to CB? I'm a bit confused, since I reckon the ultimate goal is to get my feet away from my body (though not by extending, of course)?

Thanks,
oggy
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby leopold_bloom » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:25 pm

Hello oggy,

Looks like you got caught in a crossfire that sprang up faster than a grass fire in July.

I stand by my original comments. Major deficits that I didn't see in your skiing are things like bracing one ski against the other, a big up move transition, unmitigated tail riding, wild rotation-inducing arm movements, a frozen-in-place half squat position or a mortal fear of letting yourself cross your skis in transition. These are problems commonly seen here and it would appear that they are difficult to correct. If you don't have these, you're ahead of the game in my book.

Mr. Harb made mention of your jetting action. This is what prompted me to suggest you ski on flat snow. I wasn't about to conclude that this was part of your core technique based on a few turns. Maybe you were just having a little fun on those little bumps or you weren't making the necessary adjustments to the terrain under your feet. Either way, I chose to set that aside and focus on the what I saw as a more fundamental issue in your skiing. I don't think it's helpful to list every flaw I see in a piece of skiing. I try to figure out which one is most likely holding you back and then describe it in "my often over complicated, too wordy and vague" style.

Good luck!

Leo
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby h.harb » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:37 pm

You have a lot of good things happening in your skiing. It's good to see a free foot that is working independently of the stance foot. Overall, you are pretty well balanced and in control of the various elements. I don't see any major deficits that will stand in the way of progress.


All of a sudden this doesn't look to be so good any more! I thought you didn't see any major deficits? Come on Leo, the jig is up, better back off before you get into further trouble posting from a Canadian URL, with a Dubin address on your avatar. We don't do that sort of thing here.
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Re: MA for oggy

Postby h.harb » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:42 pm

I don't understand the "feet under body" part: is this in relation to the fore/aft balance? Or to CB


Do a search on the forum, or read the Essentials book, there are no short cuts. Immerse yourself in PMTS, a cursory over view is just what it is, skimming the top. There are many references to how and where to tip the skis.
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