It's the release stupid!!

[jbotti]

This is a message that I need to hammer into my mind. I am probably at best an advancing intermediate skier and I started skiing about 1 year ago. Luckily I discovered Harald and PMTS and I am making some great progress. As I am now skiing alot more difficult terrain, it has become obvious to me that without what Harald calls a "killer short radius turn", expert terrain will always be a challenge. The more I work and watch my skiing, the more I notice how poor my release is. It is obvious to me that without a pure and effortless release, the killer short radius turn will be elusive. I try to do the two releasing drills in book 2 (1 footed and 2 footed), but at this moment they are somewhat beyond me. I can do carved garlands and I use these to work on my release and it is improving. Any thoughts on what else I can do to improve my release would be appreciated.
As well, I did alot of work yeterday on one legged skiing. As I practiced I started to notice that when I pressured the tips I was able to engage the little toe edge with just the movements of my foot and I was able to turn (toward the little toe edge) without throwing my weight way over the outside edge. Later when I took this sensation into steep terrain (on two skis), I had a much greater sense of control. For those who practice one legged skiing, is this the right sensation to be working with?

[Jeff Markham]

WRT releasing, I still wasn't getting it after my first G/B camp. One of my problems was that I was getting too mental about it and was actually getting into a traverse while I pondered the release. So, when I transferred my weight to the uphill ski, I had lost two things: the centrifugal force from the turn and my ski had gone flat, losing its energy.

One of the things that has been mentioned by others (Harald?) is how much the release is like collapsing the leg of a card table. When the leg goes, the table falls over. That's very close to what happens when I release now.

You definitely DON'T want to push off from the uphill ski to propel your body downhill. I did that in front of Diana (I'm always trying to impress the ladies) and launched myself headfirst down the hill. Diana was amused but not particularly impressed. <g>

Here's how I finally "got" the release: I got pissed at myself. So, I loaded up the downhill ski in a left turn (I still remember the exact turn) and just said "screw it" and collapsed the stance leg. It was amazing -- my left ski just whipped around in the turn to the right. I'll never forget that feeling. I had been expecting to get a sensation of my torso moving downhill over my skis, but instead it was a sensation that my legs had swung like a pendulum underneath me UP the hill. Once I felt that sensation, I knew that it *could* be done, although I initially wasn't able to reproduce it consistently.

Once you get the hang of it, you can really start pushing it by cranking up the turn "intensity" and collapsing/flexing as fast as possible. Sunday, I released so abruptly that I could have sworn that my skis leapt up off the snow. Yeah, right -- I'm probably deluding myself...

Standard disclaimers: My 2cents. YMMV. Void where prohibited by law.

[jbotti]

Thanks Jeff.

[Guest]

Killer short radius?

Finish your turns and keep your body moving down the hill. Then go back and clean up your stuff with attention to detail (hands, angles, etc.)

I keep reading very analytical responses to resolve basic movement pattern problems. Is this the dogma of PMTS? It's too much like PSIA.

[gravity]

Killer short radius?

Finish your turns and keep your body moving down the hill. Then go back and clean up your stuff with attention to detail (hands, angles, etc.)

I keep reading very analytical responses to resolve basic movement pattern problems. Is this the dogma of PMTS? It's too much like PSIA.

I dislike that you can post without a profile name on this board. I did so here without realizing that I hadn't signed in.

I think the integrity of the board would be improved if we knew better who is saying what.

[Bluey]

gravity,

Quote : "I keep reading very analytical responses to resolve basic movement pattern problems. Is this the dogma of PMTS? It's too much like PSIA."


IMHO, I understand you can classify skiers into 2 groups.....Thinkers and Doers.


Thinkers have to know/understand what's going on before their bodies/minds are ready to do it.......
Whilst, Doers are experiental skiers who simply do it first then think about it. Doers have a different connection to their bodies.

Both approaches work.


So its not the dogma of PMTS but rather a reflection of the personalities in this forum.........


My approach is to have fun skiing...so if either thinking or doing will dial up the fun factor ....then I'm into that.......


Life's simple. I'm simple.
Not much more to add.


Bluey

[jclayton]

HI Gravity,
I can see why you and SCSA have sparring matches , you both shoot from the hip .

I don't think there is as much analysis as you think here , we have a basic product , which is Haralds system ( books , videos etc..) which explains things in a fairly concrete way . I personally ,as have many others, have found his cues and explanations helpful in a direct and immediate way .

You are obviously in favor of this system but I suspect , from your posts,
that you are an accomplished skier who works intuitively and thus doesn't need much explanation ( as my countryman , Bluey,says a "doer"). Many of us find a slightly different point of view or experience from our peers assist in finding our way through the basic system using the "common language" of the books .

Allowing for various difficulties in explaining actions and physical sensations I think most of the guys get their points across pretty well . Its helpful to see others struggle with similar problems in their skiing .

On thing I had struggled with for years was the transition between turns , I couldn't get exactly what various parts of the body had to do or where they should be . No amount of physical intuition could help ( or years of ski school instruction ) and I have a lot of experience in Martial Arts and was an accomplished Flamenco guitar player so I am certaily not lacking in physical co-ordination . Haralds explanation of the release and float was just the cue I needed . There is obviously some analysis but it had an immediate "physical " impact , from the words I could almost feel the correct sensations .

Not many of us have Haralds erudition but we are making an honest , unpretentious attempt at getting their message, problems or solutions across IMO. Also Haralds replies have a way of centering things or clearing up misconceptions .

There is no comparison to posts on the "other" forum ( which also is not all bad and can be a good laugh ) . You probably have seen the reams of blather about the "perfect turn " by the sites guru . One of the most unhelpful over analysed things I have ever read in any field . But many people seem to respond to this though I would like to see how they ski .

Feel free to pick my argument apart but I think you have missed the point a little . As for " finish your turns and keep moving your body down the hill" is about as helpful as " just get out there and huck your meat off that 50' cliff" .

I always liked Paul Klees argument , you start painting in a childish way when young ,then you develop technique and skill , then you have the base to forget this and paint in a childLIKE way . I.E. spontaneously , intuitively , HOPEFULLY .

-cheeers
J.C. ( got a bit carried away there )

[-- SCSA]

I'll drop in here.

Two things that caught my eye, that I really dig: the weighted release, the short turn.

I know in my case, the toughest thing to learn (not that I've mastered it) is that weighted release. But like Jeff Markham says, when it happens, it's skiing nirvana.

I know I really focus on the weighted release now. I think about it every turn; "Relax/release, flex, tip". I just repeat that to myself, all day long. Remember PMTS fans! You can't relax and flex the stance foot unless you're standing on it and making that stance leg longer! The weighted release is really cool. I was skiing with a woman the other day and that's what I was working on with her. She was actually getting it, by the end of the day. It was cool to see.

=========
Warning! Danger! SCSA observation!
Most skiers don't do the weighted release, they never learn to lean downhill. It keeps them in blue land.
===============

Now on to my other luv, the short turn. Folks, HH is so right. You must learn the bullet proof short turn if you really want to ski all mountain. I use cat tracks and flat parts as opportunity to work on my short turn. "Little toe, big toe, little toe, big toe". Getting my skis back and forth from one set of edges to the other, using -- that's right -- the weighted release! Oh man, I luv making short turns.

=========
Warning!! Danger!! Another SCSA observation!
Hanging out at the Big Show the way I do, I often hookup with friends or ski with others. The ones that have trouble all have the same problem (among a bevy of others). What is it? They can't link together short turns. The short turn is a requirement in bumps, in glades and on steeps. No short turn, no following behind us. Learn the short turn first!
=================

Be cool,
-- and drive a small car!

I'll check with you cats later,

[-- SCSA]

Possible double post coming:

jclayton,

I dig your posts -- nice job! If you ever find yourself in Eagle County (or any of you other PMTS fans), make sure you drop me a line. I'll give the red carpet tour of the Big Show or we could hop in the tourist trophy and head up to Highlands or Snowmass.

Cheers!

[tommy]

Bluey wrote: [IMHO, I understand you can classify skiers into 2 groups.....Thinkers and Doers.]

Bluey,

I think you are absolutely right here:

I got a friend, who's never bothered to give any kind of analythical thought to how he performs the various sports he's doing; like Nike's slogan, he's "Just doing it". And the strange thing is that he's doing very well in every type of sport he tries out, without any coaching, he's able to outperform a lot of those people who exclusively focus on that specific sport.

Whereas for myself, I have to "study" and think about each move I make, ahead of and after making it. I've learned to sail, windsurf, ski, inlines and a few other sports by first reading about them, and then trying out the various moves. Can't say I'm very good at any of them, but at least my progression is reasonably good.

To me, while on slopes, it's really helpful having a "vocabulary" to use; while doing a run, I'm always thinking about "tipping the free ski", "Plant, Release, Hands Forward", "pull free ski back", maintaining the same edge angle etc etc. The vocablulary helps me to focus on the moves to make.

Then again, while watching my kids doing snowboarding: they don't think about any move they make; like Nike, they are just doing it. And they are doing quite well.

So, I guess I'm in the Thinkers category. One (of possible many) downsides of this category is that it's hard to "relax and just enjoy" - I spend way too much time analyzing my own performance on the slopes....

Cheers,
Tommy

[jclayton]

Hi Tommy,
I wouldn't worry , the intuitive part comes after a lot of hard work but it will come . I have also known poeple who pick things up intuitively and quickly , but so many times those who struggle at first but stick it out and battle through their shortcomings and difficulties come out on top and/or end up with tremendous satisfaction .
J.C.

[Bluey]

SCSA,

I agree.

The Weighted release was a breakthrough for me.
It was explained & shown to me properly at a Harb Camp.

When I got that right on the first day of the Camp.....the rest of my skiing opened up......

Getting the release right in conjunction with the phantom move is the bread & butter of skiing better

Bluey

[-- SCSA]

Bluey,

You're on fire!

[Bluey]

I'd like to take this idea of the release one step further...........'cause it covers a few areas such as that raised by JimR and also an issue that we haven't canvassed much in detail and that's the concept of the "continuum of tipping"....tip,tip tip, tip ,tip ,tip ,tip ,tip, tip..........throughtout the whole of the turn....and not just at the begining.

I just finished reading an article by HH viz "Releasing : Methods to Start a Turn" ( June 03 ).

http://www.pmts.org/lib/libteach7.htm

( BTW.... there is some other good stuff at this website viz. http://www.pmts.org eg http://www.pmts.org/lib/libteach6.htm ).

I digress....Anyway back to HH's article ( "Releasing : Methods to Start a Turn" ) one of the points I took from this article is that without a "good" release, the rest of the turn is compromised and in fact without the continuous tipping, the energy in the ski is lost so the beginning of the next turn requires more muscle energy to make it happen......not very efficient and very tiring.
For me there is so much going on at the end of a turn that if I can "Use the Force" stored in the energy of the ski to assist me into the next turn, then so much the better......and its much more fun too.

Here's a "cut & paste" of the section of that article that impressed me......and apologies for its length............( if you don't want to read it, just "page down")............


Quote begins : "Fortunately, even an incorrect phantom move yields positive results. Where do skiers go wrong with this release, and what can they do to improve their performance?

If we read again the description of the phantom move, we see that the tilting action of the foot does not cease once the foot is lightened. The tipping action with the free foot should continue through the whole turn. To convey this, we often say, ?Start tipping at the beginning, tip more toward the middle of the turn and tip the free foot most at the end of the turn?. This continuous tipping action is important ? it sets you up for a series of quality turns. When the inside ski is tilted toward its little-toe edge at the end of a turn, weight and balance can be transferred to it while it is tilted on its little-toe edge. This is the parallel beginning; the end of one turn creates the desired beginning of the next turn, avoiding the stem and making a smooth series of linked turns.

Many skiers lift or lighten the downhill ski to begin the turn. As soon as the turn begins, they cease any action with the free foot. Let?s discuss what happens when the tipping of the free foot is weak or nonexistent through a turn.
top

In absence of tipping the free foot, which tilts the skis and pulls the body into the new turn, the skier must do something else to make the skis turn. The focus necessarily shifts to the outside ski, and rotation and skidding are often the result. Many skiers will ask, ?How will the rotation and skidding occur if the skier is trying to edge the outside ski?? Well, if the free foot stops tipping it remains relatively flat to the slope. If the outside leg and foot are trying to edge that ski, they will do so without creating a significant body angle to the slope. Actively edging the outside ski doesn?t move the body inside the arc of the turn ? it creates only ?knee angulation?. As the knee tilts inward, the thigh rotates with it, tending to twist the ski.

If the skier continues this outside ski dominance through the end of the turn and then attempts a phantom move, the lightening and tilting will transfer weight onto the new downhill ski, but this ski will be flat on the snow rather than tilted toward its little-toe edge. This is not a parallel turn ? the skis are not at the same edge angle, and they will likely splay apart into a stem. The lack of continuous tipping effort with the inside foot is why many skiers do not achieve a clean parallel transition between turns.

If, instead, the inside ski is tipped toward its little-toe edge at the finish of the turn, we get the transfer onto that edge and the clean parallel transition we discussed above. The skis match each other?s edge angle at transition and throughout the turn. With more tilting efforts of the inside foot, skiers would experience a good release. As skiers develop more awareness of tilting the inside ski, they ski with higher edge angles, more control, and rounder turns...... End of Quote.


...........OK...Phew, I appreciate the above cut & paste was long ...possibly too long but , for me it says it all so neatly..........


My summation of the above is that, to get the release going correctly you need the continous tipping to put the ski ( read : energy stored inside the ski ) into a position whereby it can launch you into the next turn.......its kinda like a controlled slingshot effect........

OK so back to JimR's point, in his post to Tommy's thread "Speed control on "pure" carving ?", concerning/about where the energy is "going" where a skier is headed downhill and across the hill......
Where's the residual energy "hiding"/being stored ....answer.....
IMHO, into the ski itself.....as the ski bends into the bottom of the turn in soaks up the energy generated from the pull of gravity, the trick is to Release the energy in the turn before you head downhill again....if that makes sense.
How do you store the energy in the ski?
Also, IMHO, my guess is that its controlling my Fore/Aft balance via the pulling the hips under the body and staying centred over my ski boots

Anyway, there's my bit about why I concentrate on getting the Release right and why I focus on my Continuous tipping............'cause those 2 simple things make the fun happen for me.

Where'd I find out about this.....at my Harb Camp......not the books or the articles.....sure the ideas are in those but it was only at the Camp that I was shown How to do it and how to do it Properly.

So that's it for me on Releasing......a great lead-in thread for me ....thanks jbotti.....


.......and for those patient enough to read all of the above.......apologies to you that I couldn't make it shorter but I'm not a fast thinker, nor a pithy thinker....more of a tortoise.....


Bluey

[BigE]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the whole point of continuous tipping just simply increasing edge angle of both skis throughout the turn until it is maximized at the bottom?