Javelin Von Gruenigen turns

[Jeff Markham]

I've been intermittently working on Von Gruenigen turns since last year. I've been making connected turns but, as I told Harald, I looked like a wounded duck. Typically, my free foot was held 12"-18" from my stance foot and I was desperately counterbalancing. As a result, my turns were very skidded.

Yesterday, I spent several runs practicing the Phantom Javelin and then one complete run practicing the release from the uphill edge. After doing that, I started practicing Von Gruenigen turns with a Javelin added. I also tried to "reverse Phantom" the free foot by tipping to the big toe edge (not easy -- I did experience some foot cramping). I'm not exactly sure why, but all of a sudden my turns went much better. Some of them were even carved. For sure, my balance was much better.

At any rate, I thought that I'd share this for anyone who, like me, has been struggling with Von Gruenigen turns.

[hh]

Jeff, you are doing a wonderful job. If more skiers would go out and experiment like you are doing, or practice the exercises in the book, they would find faster overall skiing improvement and enjoyment. Skiing besides technique is a program of learning where and how to find, lose and recover balance. You need to discover for yourself how much weight you can put on a ski, inside or outside without falling. Versatility gives you more confidence and ability. Good luck.

[pat]

Jeff,
I couldn't believe the timing of your post. I am a former maverick ski instructor who just got back into skiing after 25+ years. I am a huge Harold Harb fan and have read and watched every book and video that he has published. His PMTS is so well thought out and it works. BUT, I too was having trouble using any of the traditional "Phantom Moves" for pure carved turns. In just the past two days I have experienced a breakthrough. I didn't know what to call it until I read your post, but the "Reverse Phantom" (tipping the new free foot to the BIG toe edge) also works for me. I also found that if, after a very light pole touch, I kind of fall downhill for a milosecond (feels like I'm going to fall over-but I don't) the skis carve like crazy and my body eventually "catches up" to my skis. I also have to use a wider and lower stance than I normally would use for more "Brushed-elegant" turns. So, in summary, to make perfect carved turns I now concentrate on: wider stance, lower , more relaxed body position, very light pole touch, and either the "Reverse " Phantom move, or the slight tipping downhill of the upper body. Both of the latter work for me-I'll have to get more ski time in to decide which to focus on. Would love to hear Harold's comments on this.
Pat Ryan

[patprof]

Jeff,
In re-reading my previous post, I realized that I made a mistake. It is actually the soon-to-be STANCE foot that I tip to the BIG Toe edge just before fully weighting it. So it goes like this: light pole touch and tip new stance foot toward big toe edge, then fully weight it. Then carve like crazy!
Pat Ryan

[hh]

Hi guys, interesting discussion. The original Von G. move was, finish the turn and begin the turn on the same ski, which is the old stance ski or outside ski and it turns into the new inside or free foot. The free foot or ski (of/from the previous turn) is crossed over the stance ski to produce the javelin exercise. If you leave it crossed in and during the transition to the next turn, you are doing a Von G. Javelin entry. If you then bring the crossed ski back and put it on the big toe edge, you are engaging the new stance ski. Because you have already prepared the body for the angles of the turn by initiating with the old stance ski, CM has to follow that move, (the exercise produces great body angles) as you said Pat, at first it feels like you are about to fall into the turn, but you don?t.

This is a great way to learn commitment. I am always trying to increase my commitment. I often lean into the turn when I am experimenting with my skiing, to see how much I can get away with. I landed on my side the other day in front of a Green Blue camp group.
Have Fun, I am!

HH

[Jeff Markham]

Pat,

That's great that you've got something that's working for you, but I was only talking about a "Reverse Phantom" within the context of a Von Gruenigen turn, where the stance foot is on the little-toe edge. I was using a "Reverse Phantom" to get my stance foot further tipped to the little-toe edge.

In a regular turn, I'm not actively tipping the stance foot to the big toe edge. In fact, one of the things I've been working on since the last camp is to briefly get on the little-toe-little-toe edges at the initiation of a turn. Following that, I'm focusing on continued tipping of the new free foot and the stance foot takes care of itself.

Like I said, whatever works for you, but I am not recommending actively tipping the new or soon-to-be stance foot to the big toe edge. My stance foot is tipping passively.

[Guest]

Jeff,
I realized that you were using what you describe as a "Reverse Phantom" in the context of doing V.G. Turns. What atttracted my attention was your additional statement about carving and also the term "Reverse Phantom". I also use the various Phantom moves in making "Normal" (ie pushed-elegant) turns. BUT, they didn't seem to work as well for me making pure carved turns. No matter how hard I tried, I experienced a little push-skid at the beginning of the turn (not a sin by any stretch). It wasn't until I widened my feet a tad, lowered my stance, spread my hands a little further, and tipped (upper body) a little into the turn that I started to lay down those "High C" carved turns that Harald talks about. I was able to achieve the same thing by doing what you describe as a "Reverse Phantom".
Pat Ryan