Are my skis holding me back?

PMTS Forum

A switch to Nordica?

Postby Rookie » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:09 pm

Harald, you state:

"Nordica is the coming ski in the future, we will be testing it for the next season.". Could this mean a move from Head to Nordica? You have commented on the boots before, and now the skis.

Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:06 am
Location: Cincy, OH

Postby Ken » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:38 pm

sold Nordica a few years ago to Tecnica. We do not like Tecnica boots, but we like Nodica boots, they are completely different, go figure.
Quiksilver Corp. of southern California bought Rossingol Group last March, makers of Rossi & Dynastar skis (different products), Rossi & Lange boots (different products), and Look & Rossi bindings (identical products).

"Quiksilver?s primary focus is apparel, footwear and related accessories for young men and young women under the Quiksilver, Roxy, DC Shoes, Raisins, Radio Fiji and Island Soul labels. Quiksilver also manufactures apparel, footwear and related accessories for boys (Quiksilver Boys and Hawk Clothing), girls (Roxy Girl, Teenie Wahine and Raisins Girls), men (Quiksilveredition and Fidra) and women (Leilani swimwear), as well as snowboards, snowboard boots and bindings under the Lib Technologies, Gnu, DC Shoes, Roxy and Bent Metal labels."

Who's on first?
http://www.phoenix5.org/humor/WhosOnFirstAudio.mp3


Ken
Rooster today
Feather duster tomorrow

VIDEO OF NOT ME
Ken
 
Posts: 784
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:23 pm
Location: Washington, the state

Head First

Postby Harald » Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:56 pm

Head First:

We are always on the lookout for products that work for our skiers. We are relentlessly searching for the ski or boot that will make skiing easier. We are usually ahead of the curve when it comes to discovering new products that work.

If Nordica has such a ski, we may carry it in the future,
but not if Head already has the same or better product.

We knew that Nordica had a great boot for some time. I raced both pro and world cup races while sponsered by Nordica.

When Head and Dalbello stopped producing narrow boots for narrow heels and feet, we had to find an alternative and we found a good one, Nordica Dobermans and Hot Rods. I can?t tell you how many pair of Lange and Tecnica ski boots we have rebuilt for our guests, because they don?t work out of the shop. We cut the backs off at the bottom of the upper cuff to reduce forward lean, and re-rivet the cuff to straighten the shell.

We still carry three models of Head boots and Dalbello.

Head skis are still the ski of choice.
The models we find that work are the XRC 800, the best value in any store. The Super Shapes of course, the iSl, M88 for the real powder experience, and the M72 for the introduction to all mountain skiing. The M72 can make a 14m radius turn in a 163cm, so we still like its characteristics for the more aggressive skier, who has carving skills.

Diana and I often ski on the Head race skis, as they bend and feel like silk and hold like ice picks on steep, slippery, snow.

We would prefer not to sell skis, we only carry skis in our shop because we want to offer our skiers skis that we have pre-selected and are tested and bought only if we find they improve skiing for our campers during our camps.

We rarely sell a ski to walk in customers. Most walk in customers are influenced by other shops or magazines already. Walk in customers to our shop are mostly looking for what they tell us we provide, the best boot set up in the ski industry.
"Maximum Skiing information, Minimum BS
Harald
 
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:36 pm
Location: Dumont

Re: Doberman SC

Postby JohnMoore » Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:18 am

Harald wrote:I checked the site and the skis, it is the Doberman SC

http://www.nordica.com/ski/scheda.php?s=1&target=190


Great, thanks. Looking at the sidecut (116-64-104), it's not hugely different from the Supershape (120-65-105). Do you reckon it would have similar characteristics, or does that extra 4mm at the shovel totally transform the behaviour?
JohnMoore
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:44 pm
Location: Norfolk, England

Re: Doberman SC

Postby Max_501 » Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:53 am

JohnMoore wrote:
Harald wrote:I checked the site and the skis, it is the Doberman SC

http://www.nordica.com/ski/scheda.php?s=1&target=190


Great, thanks. Looking at the sidecut (116-64-104), it's not hugely different from the Supershape (120-65-105). Do you reckon it would have similar characteristics, or does that extra 4mm at the shovel totally transform the behaviour?


Either of those skis is going to be vastly different than what you are on now. Even an Atomic SL:9 (very similar sidecut) would give you a taste of what you are missing by not being on a detuned SL race ski (though the flex charactistics are different then the Heads I still like Atomics - I own Head and Atomic SL skis).
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4124
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Postby JohnMoore » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:01 am

Funny, I started this thread thinking about powder skis, now I'm looking at slalom skis. I'll certainly rent some suitable slalom skis when I'm in Switzerland in a couple of weeks, to see what difference they make to my basic PMTS stuff. I'm even toying with the idea of buying a pair of last year's ex-rental skis and leaving them there, out in the shed of the place I usually stay. There's a shop where the guy sells the ex-rental stuff off ridiculously cheap because he believes that the skis must be clapped out by the end of the season, but from what I've heard, skis don't lose their flex these days like they used to. Unless, of course, it's all the services, shaving stuff off. What's the general thinking about this?
JohnMoore
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:44 pm
Location: Norfolk, England

heyoke here

Postby Heyoka » Sat Jan 14, 2006 8:04 am

Heya John,

My story is now this. I have this pair of i88's. But everytime it snows, I grab my i supershapes.

10-4
Ski like Hell, go to Heaven
Heyoka
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Hole in the Sky

Postby JohnMoore » Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:11 am

A general learning question arises for me from the way this thread has gone. Assuming that I want to end up with a single pair of skis which does everything OK, which would be ones in the all-mountain category, is it better to learn PMTS on equipment which makes it easier (narrow-waisted slalom skis) and then transfer what I've learned to wider-waisted skis, or to learn the moves on the wider-waisted skis to start with? I can see the advantages of doing the former in terms of 'muscle memory' - once you're used to doing something right under more forgiving conditions, its easier to reproduce it under tougher conditions.
JohnMoore
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:44 pm
Location: Norfolk, England

Postby tommy » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:01 pm

Harald wrote:

You can?t compare an Atomic 920 or 922 to a Super Shape or iSL. The Super Shape is twice the all around ski than any Atomic. I don?t like the way Atomic?s bend. They hold great, but they do not go into the turn without some extra cozying. The Super Shape is 66mm under foot, wider than a slalom, but with the same radius. This means the whole ski is wider. Atomics are now too wide even though they are carving skis. The Metron is 72mm yet something about its stiffness makes it jumpy and unstable and hard to manage, especially if you are not an expert tuner. A Super Shape you can ski right out of the wrapper. I compare our clients skiing on all these products. I select the skis that work best for our skiers when I endorse a product. I can see when people are struggling and I think skiers on Atomic have more difficulty balancing and learning with ease.


Just a general question: wouldn't a narrower ski be more easy to tip than a wider one, i.e. requiring less effort to get on edge ? Reason for asking is that when I demoed a Head (can't remember model, but some 70+ at waist) that was considerably wider than my "std" Atomic SL 9 (115,65,100), I noticed that it clearly took more effort to get the Heads on edge.

So the question is: at least for learning purposes on groomed terrain, would a narrow waist be preferable ?

Btw, even though I've had few opportunities to do "real" powder with my SL's, I have not discovered any major issues with them even in "off-groomed" conditions...

--T
tommy
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:27 am
Location: Waxholm, Stockholm Archipelago, Sweden

Postby JohnMoore » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:07 pm

tommy wrote:Just a general question: wouldn't a narrower ski be more easy to tip than a wider one, i.e. requiring less effort to get on edge ? Reason for asking is that when I demoed a Head (can't remember model, but some 70+ at waist) that was considerably wider than my "std" Atomic SL 9 (115,65,100), I noticed that it clearly took more effort to get the Heads on edge.


Yes, Harald suggests it's much better to go for a slalom type ski (with a sidecut like the Atomic you mentioned) for getting edge to edge. Supershapes look like they have the best of both worlds, from what others are saying. I'd love to give them a go some time.
JohnMoore
 
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:44 pm
Location: Norfolk, England

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:08 pm

tommy wrote:So the question is: at least for learning purposes on groomed terrain, would a narrow waist be preferable ?


Yes.
User avatar
Max_501
 
Posts: 4124
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:39 pm

Postby Ken » Mon Jan 16, 2006 3:47 pm

Think of a straight line coming down your lower leg, getting to a pivot point inside your ankle, then two lines out to the edges of your ski. The narrower angle these two lines make, the easier you'll put the ski on edge. The closer horizontally the edge of the ski is to that pivot point, the less force you'll need to put the ski on edge. If you add a lift under the boot, you also narrow the angle of the lines from the ankle pivot to the ski edges.

This is oversimplified, but the geometry works much like that. Anyone with tender knees will likely find that narrower skis edge with less strain on those gimpy old knees.


Ken
Rooster today
Feather duster tomorrow

VIDEO OF NOT ME
Ken
 
Posts: 784
Joined: Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:23 pm
Location: Washington, the state

Postby tommy » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:54 am

Ken,

that makes sense. And I guess what you are saying about heel lifts (angle reduction) is the reason why the WC racers have some rule re. max lift - one of the Swedish women got disqualified few weeks ago b/c hers was a mm or 2 too high....

--T
tommy
 
Posts: 264
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:27 am
Location: Waxholm, Stockholm Archipelago, Sweden

Cars and skis

Postby Harald » Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:42 pm

Very good discussion, this is exactly the reasoning for narrower skis and the approach we have held for ten years, less effort, more hold. Also, narrower skis allow the skier to learn more quickly.


Wide skis require speed, energy and commitment to tip on edge. Why this trend to wide skis exists is beyond me. (Except on those great powder days)

Me thinks that it is possibly for those who have given up on real skiing to have an excuse to skid, and go straight (I see them on the mountain all the time) either that or they realize they were sold a bill of goods by the shop kid or ski magazines and they hate to admit it.
Kind of like buying an expensive bad car (like with a star on the hood) (Audi lovers unit) and being embarrassed about telling anyone it sucks.
"Maximum Skiing information, Minimum BS
Harald
 
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:36 pm
Location: Dumont

Postby jbotti » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:02 pm

Just another tidbit to add. Thin waisted, short turn radius skis also give anyone the ability to carve more of the mountain. If you need to carve tight arcs on cat walks and in traffic you can do it on slalom skis. You are much more likely to skid wide skis because it can be risky in tight spots (at least for mortals like me). Hence with with Slalom skis you can work on skiing correctly, with good form, all over the mountain. It is also pretty easy to gs the turns and maintain form, which is not the case taking a fat waisted ski into the fall line for short radius turns.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
User avatar
jbotti
 
Posts: 2184
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:05 am

PreviousNext

Return to Primary Movements Teaching System

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 43 guests