Fore/aft alignment?

PMTS Forum

Fore/aft alignment?

Postby JohnMoore » Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:52 pm

I'm very very interested in the PMTS method, and have read both Harald Harb's books and watched the video (numerous times). I've not had the chance to go to a Harb clinic or camp yet, though, so I'm hoping someone here might be able to help with a remote diagnosis.

I've been trying to get the PMTS movements sorted out on a self-taught basis (I live in Europe and I've not been to a ski resort yet where there has been a PMTS-trained instructor). Although I feel I'm attempting to do the right things, I'm having difficulty making them work. I had boot alignment done a couple of years ago by someone with a very good reputation in Squaw Valley, CA (Gunnar at Granite Chief, if anyone knows the area). But even after that I felt there was a problem with my fore/aft balance, specifically that the natural position my boots seemed to want to keep me in was too far back for me to be able to lift the heel of my free foot at all easily. My boots are pretty stiff ones, chosen primarily because I have narrow feet and these were the only decent ones the store had which were a snug fit (they're a Nordica Grand Prix ST model). Last year I attempted a little kludge of my own and made a couple of makeshift heel lifts which seemed to help considerably (and may have done the trick, I'll see when I go skiing next weekend). The eye of a PMTS expert would be of real use, if at all possible, but in the absence of this, can anyone tell me what to look for?

Thanks,

John Moore
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Postby Erik/BigE » Wed Jan 28, 2004 7:52 am

A simple excercise is to hop when on skis. You can do it stationary at first. If you can only lift the tails of the ski, your balance is too far forward. If you can only lift the tips, you are too far back. The ski should come up parallel to the hill.

Once you have that going, make a few turns while hopping through them. You don't need to go high. Try a quick hop rate, so that when you land you flex and hop again. More like bouncing through the turn. It's a great warmup exercise to quickly get the feeling of being on skis again.
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Postby tommy » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:25 am

Erik's suggestion re. hopping exercises to establish a feel for fore/aft alignment sounds interesting. I'll try it out next time.

A question related to this thread: isn't fore/aft alignment a somewhat different thing from fore/aft balance ? I could imagine that the former is mainly influenced by where the binding sits on the ski, whereas fore/aft balance could in addition also be influenced by additional factors, like boot design, body posture etc ? Also, I assume that fore/aft alignment can influence fore/aft balance.

During camp, Harald suggested that I move my binding, which allows for fore/aft adjustments, to move it forwards one notch; the distance is about 1cm only, but it makes quite a difference: a previous tendency to fall to the back seat has vanished with this change.

One "tool" I've found out to be great for "general" (body position) fore/aft assessment is to ride inlines. You *really* don't want to be in the backseat while on inlines, that's way too painful....! :-)

Cheers,
Tommy
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Postby JohnMoore » Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:55 am

Erik/BigE wrote:A simple excercise is to hop when on skis. You can do it stationary at first. If you can only lift the tails of the ski, your balance is too far forward. If you can only lift the tips, you are too far back. The ski should come up parallel to the hill.


This is a great tip! I look forward to trying this out on Sunday.

If I should find I'm too far forward or too far back, what simple do-it-yourself remedy can I apply? Is this the sort of thing which is fixed by shims between the boot and binding, either at the toe or the heel (depending what needs remedying)?

JM
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Postby JohnMoore » Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:59 am

tommy wrote:During camp, Harald suggested that I move my binding, which allows for fore/aft adjustments, to move it forwards one notch; the distance is about 1cm only, but it makes quite a difference: a previous tendency to fall to the back seat has vanished with this change.


I think you're lucky with the bindings - I don't believe this is a common feature, is it? (Of course, if I *knew* that was the problem I could have the bindings remounted).

tommy wrote:One "tool" I've found out to be great for "general" (body position) fore/aft assessment is to ride inlines. You *really* don't want to be in the backseat while on inlines, that's way too painful....! :-)


I don't know what inlines are. Could you explain, please?

JM
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Postby Guest » Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:43 am

[quote="JohnMoore
If I should find I'm too far forward or too far back, what simple do-it-yourself remedy can I apply? Is this the sort of thing which is fixed by shims between the boot and binding, either at the toe or the heel (depending what needs remedying)?

JM[/quote]

Maybe it's just you! ;)

It should have nothing to do with the binding. It's more likely the ramp angle within the boot, or the lean of the cuff. Is the cuff tilt adjustable? It will be also reflected in your stance. There are three pictures on this page.

http://www.gmolfoot.com/balance.htm

Which one has a stance similar to yours?

The forward guy has quads that will be tense and may hurt when standing in line. He will lean on his poles a lot when in line. A lift under the ball of the foot may help. The back guy will ride on the tails of his skis - a heel lift should help.

The middle guy is alright. If that is you, then you'll need personal instruction.

Or Maybe your boots are simply overtightened?

Hope this helps.
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for/aft balance

Postby h.harb » Wed Jan 28, 2004 11:58 am

OK, you roped me into this one, there is so much confusion and misinformation about this aspect of balance that I hardly know where to begin addressing this issue. Here's a try.

For/Aft balance conclusions:

Our attempts to find solutions for aligning and correcting for/aft balance are extensive. We did a number of tests with skiers numbering as large as groups of ten with varying body types, men and women. We measured, changed ramp angles, and forward lean in the same boots. We measured all of their leg lengths, femur, tibia, and torso proportions. This involves considerable time and effort, so I speak confidently becasue this is scientific research and it included ligitimate PhD?s as particpants.

Binding placement:
We did tests with binding placement. From this test we found Austrian skis ski better with more forward binding placement then the manufacturers recommend.

Overall, we learned more about where skiers prefer to stand based on their body proportions, but we also found that joints and movement capabilities for these joints are so extensive that actual concrete conclusions are difficult to nail down. This is not as simple as lateral canting. Here is some advice I can offer:

The first step in the process is naturally boot selection. Changing from one boot type, design or brand can actually correct the problem immediately. Some skiers are more likely to have for/aft balance problems than others and they are fairly easy to recognize because they demonstrate very little ankle movement capability in their boots.

When you ask them to flex the boot they will try to flex by moving their rear end up and down, rather than pulling back the feet and lifting and moving the hips forward to bring the mass over the boot to flex the plastic. Skiers often confuse moving forward while skiing as an up movement, which by the way is still taught by most instructors. Modern skiing has no purposeful up movements. The movements used by the best skiers are either extension or flexion and the extension is always at an angle to the slope, rarely vertical. The other movement of course is flexion or bending. This is also done at an angle to the slope not when the body is vertical to the flat surface at the base.

Boots:

Please remember that we have no interest in degrading a boot company as they all go through design cycles. I don?t need twenty phone calls from the sales reps asking me why I don?t like their company. The comments I make here are based on actual results and what we see and evaluate on snow with skiers we ski with and the difference we make with the skiers when we change their products. I always keep in mind that these companies can reverse themselves with their product the very next season, as many have done.

Nordica?s are notoriously difficult to stay forward in, especially the last versions of the grand prix model. Others that can be problematic are Lange, Dolomite and Tecnica.

Our testing has demonstrated that Salomon, Dalbello, and Head do a very good job of helping skiers stay centered.

Physical limitations such as dori-flexion (range of motion of the ankle joint in for/aft movement) will cause severe for/aft balance problems for about twenty percent of skiers.

On snow exercises are helpful for developing awareness of proper stance range, but they don?t necessarily solve the problem permanently. A combination of good boots, heel lift, inside and out of the boot (under the binding) and proper coaching can definitely change how skiers stand and can be effective long term.

The balance program needs to be integrated and coordinated by a good coach and preferably the coach is involved with the equipment selection and changes. There are few of these coaches in the ski industry and I have yet to meet one from Europe.

I have been an advocate of this kind of approach for over ten years, but the instructor organizations and ski equipment sellers have not seen fit to organize and bring this kind of education to the sales people or this service to skiers. If few are actually taking responsibility for the content and results of a ski lesson or equipment sale then there will always be opportunity for less then optimal results.
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Re: for/aft balance

Postby JohnMoore » Wed Jan 28, 2004 12:27 pm

h.harb wrote:OK, you roped me into this one, there is so much confusion and misinformation about this aspect of balance that I hardly know where to begin addressing this issue. Here's a try.

Thanks! I was kind of hoping you'd jump in...

Nordica?s are notoriously difficult to stay forward in, especially the last versions of the grand prix model.


Well, that's what I've got - at least a 2000 model ST. So, what can I do? I'm going to be going to Fernie next week and hope to practice the PMTS methods there, so I want to make sure my boots are OK. Should I try out or hire some Salomon, Dalbello, or Head boots when I'm there, or is there something that can be done (in the manner of the heel lift I mentioned) which will make the Nordica's workable? (Incidentally, I know there's a PMTS ski camp there while I'm there, but I can't take part in it, for various reasons).

Physical limitations such as dori-flexion (range of motion of the ankle joint in for/aft movement) will cause severe for/aft balance problems for about twenty percent of skiers.


I don't believe that's my problem, as I can 'dorsiflect' quite a bit. Incidentally, how much does your thinking on bootfitting have in common with the stuff on the Green Mountain Orthotic Lab site (http://www.gmolfoot.com)?

Thanks for your time, and keep up the great work!

JM
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Postby h.harb » Wed Jan 28, 2004 3:09 pm

I can't respond about the Green Mt boys, as I am not part of their training or evaluation process. I am not aware of the training their instructors go through and I don't know the way they analyize movements, as their staff is PSIA trained. PSIA and PMTS have very different ways of understanding movement and biomechanics. I may say for example "there is too much rotary movement here, therefore the ski is not engaging. I evaluate that situation as a movement based problem. They may say, "look, that skier has great rotary movements, but not enough canting angle . As you can see, how you evaluate movement has a great influence on alignment success.

If heel lifts help you use them. If you look for new boots check the boot fitting section and explaination in Expert Skier 1, before you buy.
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Postby Guest » Thu Jan 29, 2004 9:58 am

"Inlines"--inline skates, the primitive precursor to the HarbCarver.

Randy
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