Speed Control in PMTS

[Harald]

Check out Telluride, I spent a winter there or Kicking Horse 40% to 50%everywhere and groomed.

[Ott Gangl]

You are right Harald, we are mincing words...with "railing" I meant full edge engagements=carving, and not in the back seat, I don't do that, not for 50 years, I always feel that the skis go down the hill because they are attached to me, my body, which is actually doing the skiing, so I drag them with me.

So bending the outside leg in the last part of the turn reduces the G-force John is talking about. Does this mean that the transition is done with both knees bent far and the hips low? How do you keep your hips forward being nearly doubled up? I really have to get together with some PMTS types to see this.

And you are right, I don't understand. Maybe it is the way we use words, mine are too general and too easily disected.

....Ott

[John Mason]

Actually Ron - in my own noggin I was thinking GS size turn - but I ski with a GS radius ski most often.

But on a shorter radius ski - skied the same way - it'd be a shorter turn. At the race camp this summer it was on a slalom ski. Same moves, same goal, but shorter turn with that ski.

Ott, I'll try to get some good movies next week to post with people's permission.

A video is worth a thousand forum words and being on the slope is worth even more.

I am thinking about bringing a helmet cam to the camp so then I can follow and tape as well as the coming and going style video. That should help a lot. (at least I'm hoping someone will helmet cam me from behind too to help me)

Moving the g's up the turn - we work at it no matter what the turn style type. It's about skiing with a true release or not skiing with a release more than anything else. The radius of the turn, at least in my noobie mind, doesn't really enter into it a lot.

What milesb said was true though. On the cornice at mammoth that was wind swept ice the day I was on it, I just did 2 footed passive releases and only had a soft carve in the bottom 1/3 of the turn where I nearly stopped to my next passive release the other way. It got me down the cornice (that was 1/2 way into my first year of skiing). If I tried what I was saying in this thread at that stage of my skiing on that terrain I would not have been able to do it. If you look at the general progression HH has in his books, this level of turn isn't for the beginners, but by page 110 in book 1 it's all there.

There are fallbacks to other turn styles and PMTS teaches multiple turn styles for various needs. The 2 footed release a beginner learns early on still has it's uses. In this post I was just talking about the bread and butter groomer carved turn I love to make. Yet, the principle of doing the release earlier and thus moving the G's up the hill higher is a good general goal.

http://www.fototime.com/2BE93312CC60DDE/orig.jpg

[Harald]

You mean Liftline manuvering device, of course!

[Ott Gangl]

OK John and Harald. I knew that the word image in my last post couldn't be right but it illustrated how one can get it wrong by misreading or misunderstanding the written word. Experienced skiers know when they understand something that must be wrong but novices don't necessarily.

John, you should know. You repeated a hundred times here and on Epicski how you do it and still you perceive that skiers don't understand what you try to put across.

A video would be fine.

....Ott

[John Mason]

different words and descriptions and starting points for interpeting the same movement patterns. could be

Diana and her V1 software and a video camera would be able to tell for sure.

I can only go by what I observe on the hill. There are very few skiers percentage wise that ski or can ski with their max g's on the sides of the turns. Most coming down the hill are upunweighting and twisting or standing wide and edging turn to turn with knee angulation or not releasing and stemming and pushing off. Most skiers do not use the energy from the last turn to enter the new turn.

At copper early season like I'll be next week you generally see two groups skiing this more efficient way. The racers junior and otherwise that are in early season camps and the better PMTS skiers.

It is sometimes 'trippy' to be going down the hill or up a lift and watching a group of skiers undergoing traditional instruction working on something completely opposite - which last year generally was working on things that enhanced stability at the expense of developing balance. Someday those skiers might get to the higher end skills but after unlearning what? Last year we overheard an instructor shouting to their students 'pretend there is a basketball between your knees'.

The 'go there' theme I observed last year involves no counter, encourages rotary over edging skills, was often combined with a wide stance, and for some poor hapless students encouraged knee angulation to accomplish what the instructor wanted and ended up with giving students blown knees. In the one particullar case I observed of this, the instructor - however - did not ski in anyway shape or form like what they were having their student do. This instructor skied narrower, used edging to create turns, had a release and used it to create their crossover energy. I asked the instructor how long they had skied and the reply was since they were 2 years old. It looked to me like a situation where the instructor figured out how to ski but seems to be unaware of the dichotomy of what they were teaching vs what they were doing themselves.

The oppourtunities for a PMTS approach to instruction seem to be on the rise.

[Ron White]

John,
The level of instruction and coaching is not always perfect. Sometimes the methods seem counterproductive. Good skiers need to blend the skills, such as proper rotary skills (rotating the femor in the hip socket) to enhance edge skills. Stability also enhances balance.

For young racers who develope an A-frame, some coaches actually have a device which consists of a soft basket ball size ball which has soft straps that strap around the knees. The result of training with the device seems to be effective.

RW

[Harald]

I still don?t think you understand that the differences between the two teaching systems has little to do with a few words that are substituted or replaced by inaccurate words or meanings using the wrong concepts, the entire PMTS approach to skiing movement and technique is different. The difference between PMTS and TTS is huge, PMTS is in line with skiing that will give you performance, in racing, all mountain or other styles. TTS still develops the skidding, up and down inefficient approaches that are dead-end.

Your technical questions in the post I responded to demonstrates old thinking, like fighting gravity, sinking, extending legs. We don?t have those problems or issues with PMTS, that?s why I said you were right to ask those questions as there are no answers in TTS. You came to the right place.

Ott, these are not little nit-picking issues, these are completely different philosophies of skiing. John, has it right, when you watch the racing community at Copper skiing day after day, and then you watch the ski instructors skiing, coaching or teaching on the same slopes, it?s not the same sport. It is for this reason I?m trying to bring out the movements that will change skiing for the masses. They are not getting it from TTS.

We don?t have those problems or issues with PMTS, that?s why I said you were right to ask those questions and there are no answers in TTS. You came to the right place.

The National instructor organization is not moving forward. I don't understand how intelligent people can not see through the hypocrisy of the organization. No one you watch on the slopes skiing well, skis with the techniques that PSIA teaches.

Many instructors have fooled themslves into thinking they are doing what the racers are doing. I will repeat what I said weeks ago on another thread.

Just becasue you are skiing with your feet wide apart, you are not skiing well or like a racer.

Two days ago I was skiing from the top to the bottom of Copper on my own, making slalom turns with relatively high angles at high speed. A skier was trying to follow me and we stopped. He said, ?Wow those are great turns, I could not follow them."

I asked him who he was, he told me he was on the National PSIA Demo team (a very nice young guy). I introduced myself and he said again ?Wow, I've heard a lot about you, I?m glad to meet you."

I offered to get together with him and ski sometime; he was very excited about the idea. I know within PSIA, there are eager minds who want to know more about skiing and teaching, but the higher ups, administrators, technical gurus, examiners, don't want to changes anything.

I know who they are, they were around when I was on the Demo Team, that's why I left. I knew the organization was going no where. I need not comment about how right I was. If I had done what everyone in PSIA wanted me to do, which was to just shut up and be quiet, do what they wanted, we would be no where today.

[jbotti]

I first want to say that so far this season our forum is taking on a completely different shape, and we have newcomwers from the TTS/ PSIA world that are contributing and all of this occurring without rancor. Bravo, it's what we have always wanted.
Having said this, I will make a comment to all newcomers, especially those steeped in a different approach to skiing and to teaching skiing. When the ego is in the way, it is impossible to learn (this is an undeniable fact). The sure fire way to learn in life is to find a master (at whatever discipline one wishes to improve in) and then learn everything that you can from him. Most importantly, surrender to his knowledge and to his ability to get you the result that you are after.
Harald is a Master, and this is not to say that there are not other people who have his kind of mastery in skiing. Unfortunatley, to get real value from Harald and from this forum, those that come from a different past, must have some willingness to say that some or (perhaps unfortunately) much of what you have learned and focused on has been in the way and cannot get you the result that you seek. I know that for me this is the toughest thing in the world to face and accept. But I have learned over and over that this is the only way to progress.
Harald and Jay, and John Mason and others consistently and elequently expound on the distinct differences between TTS and PMTS, and there are many and the differences are stark (from flexing to release vs getting upright to release, to initaiting early and agressive counter movement and counter balance vs "following the turn", to never teaching the wedge and the list goes on). I don't think that the expanantions can be any clearer, yet what consistently comes back is that "it's just another way of describing the good skiing that we are already doing and teaching". This is the exact moment of truth... It's not. It is different. In order to get real value form the forum and from Harald you need to accept this.
Let me stress that I say this with sincere compassion and my intention is to bring us all closer and for people with a tts background to continue to participate here and contribute here.

Again, I find it simple to get maximum value form Harald and PMTS. I drop my ego at the door, I am intent on learning everything form Harald until I surpass him (unlikely).
If you are having trouble doing this the real question is why? Does he not demonstrate and amazing ability with his skiing and teaching? Does he not get amazing results with his students? Do his books not display immense attention to detail and articulate specificity?
Of course you may just be stuck on the fact that he consitently say that your background (TTS) is problematic. Whether you agree with this concept or not, in my opinion it really is that he last thing that anyone should allow to get in the way of learning from a master.

So my simple tips to get maximum value from Harald and the forum:
1. Drop your ego at the door (even if it looks like Harald has not dropped his)
2. Accept that there are real differences and learn to appreciate the differences and look to use them.
3. Accept that some or much of what you have been taught has been in the way (it does not mean that you can't rip or that you can't teach, it means you could rip better and teach better).
4. Use Harald. He is here. He answers questions and he wants everyone to ski and teach better.
5. And let's all keep it fun. That is why we all ski!!

I will again say that I write this with an intention to make our forum more inclusive. I hope that you will take my comments as trying to accomplish this.

[Harald]

Thanks John, I also applaud and invite our new PSIA instructors to the forum, but clearly some do not understand what we are about. Can I guide them in a nice way to the grail, I hope so, but I also have only so much patience and time. The post before yours is another example, what is a rotary skill? Come on, Ron, have you read nothing about me or PMTS?

What is skill blending anyway? Is that when you begin with skidding and try to catch up with edging? After that you better have great pressure control or you slam into the edges at the bottom of the turn, which then requires a push off to get out of the turn. Ron if you teach that way and if you ski that way, then you have a huge opportunity before you to reach a level of skiing not possibly invisioned by you or your trainers.

We don't use whatever you mean by a rotary skill or blending, that's old school PSIA; in fact we try to eradicate it in every skier who has learned it and unforunately has become dependent on it. In every case the movements of rotary emphasis destroy, and confuse a skier's progress.

Racers sure don't use it, in fact they try to avoid it, and I know I do.

I am beginning to sense a break down of technical communing between the systems and their proponents, about to begin. I was hoping we could avoid this. I am not about to begin debating or explaining the failings of PSIA all over again on this forum, as I have thoroughly done so in my books.

Please do not bring failed PSIA concepts to the PMTS forum, talk about movments in a simple, logical way that anyone can understand. We can all contribute in a civil manner if these are the ground rules. Rotary movements and skills, blending of skills, mean nothing to the skiers on this forum, enough said.

[Ron White]

Harold,
Sorry if my communcations in the forum have caused some confusion. I do accept your terms to participate in the forums and keep an open mind. None of the s---- blending I am refering to have the anything to do with old school techniques or methods many people assiciate with PSIA. I am not suprised many people do recognise the rotary movements that WC skiers use b/c they are used so differently than the old school pivoting that many people think of. I could explain more about it, but I don't think this forum is interested.

RW

[Harald]

I am attempting to keep discussion in a realm of understanding for all levels of skiers. If we describe movements and what the goals are for movements, we will not alienate anyone and the forum will be easy to understand and follow.
My only stipulation about posting technical information on the PMTS forum is that it has to have movement relevance; it should not be terminology, insider jargon or convoluted descriptions, examples of concepts that are interpreted in thousands of different ways by different people are: blending skills, rotary movements etc. If you want to discuss these concepts describe what they do, how to move and what to move.