No eversion

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No eversion

Postby lehrski » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:50 pm

Just starting to look into PMTS. I purchased the essentials indoor video and started working on tipping indoors. My feet can tip well to the outside but can't at all to the inside. I cannot evert my ankle whatsoever. If I use my hand to move my foot/ankle, with quite a bit of force I can get it to evert about a 1/8 inch off the floor. This might explain my wonky A-frame where I tip using my knee/hip to get the ski on edge. No idea where to go from here.
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Re: No eversion

Postby Erik » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:01 am

Don't assume that your eversion cannot improve. It might be worthwhile to see a physical therapist to evaluate your eversion and get some exercises to try to improve. Exercises for working on range of motion for inversion and eversion are common for ankle injury rehab (and you can see kinds of exercises available on the web).

Since you are just getting started with PMTS, I would also recommend that you get the Essentials Indoor Introduction eVideo from Harb Ski Systems. This video has a series of exercises to help practice the movements and range of motion for all of the Essentials. It includes exercises related to tipping, and those exercises may help you practice increasing the range of motion of your eversion.

The series of dryland slantboard videos https://harbskisystems.com/pages/slantboard-training/ will help you practice your tipping in ski boots.

Also, standing on an unstable surface such as Bosu Ball, wobble board, or board with a dowel underneath (see ACBAES 2 Chapter 2) will help with the development of balance through coordination of the muscles in the ankle to make all of those small tipping movements to control your balance.
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Re: No eversion

Postby ErikCO » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:20 am

lehrski wrote:This might explain my wonky A-frame where I tip using my knee/hip to get the ski on edge. No idea where to go from here.


My guess, without more information, is that your problem is more likely alignment related rather than a lack of ankle eversion. Certainly, there are exercises you can do to improve eversion, but I can't ever remember a PMTS coach asking me to focus on active eversion. Eversion certainly happens, but most of the focus is on inversion of the free foot (tipping to LTE). Try to get some video from both in front and behind of gentle traverses on both the BTE and LTE of both skis so folks can determine if there are huge alignment issues you need to deal with.
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Re: No eversion

Postby lehrski » Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:52 pm

I've started with the dryland so that I could get the movements before I try them on snow. I can tip to the LTE easily but I can't tip at all to the BTE without using my knee and hip. I'll see if I can video a traverse tomorrow or Wed. when I'm out on the slopes to see if alignment is the problem.
I have had several significant ankle injuries including avulsion fractures in both ankles from rock climbing. I was a broke student at the time and did no physio and the ankles fixed themselves after a year or so. Or not. So doing some exercises to improve the range of motion might help too.
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Re: No eversion

Postby ErikCO » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:22 pm

If the avulsion fractures we're fairly small, you probably won't have much of an issue from a rehab standpoint (they are not really much worse than a bad sprain, just take a bit longer to fully healed). If you have more significant ligament damage, getting movement back can be much more involved. That said, I wouldn't be too surprised if it ends up being less of an issue than you expect. When I'm standing, if I try to isolate eversion, I can't get the outside of the foot very far off the ground. Per the AMA, "normal" eversion is about 20 degrees. Inversion is about 30 degrees, however active inversion is often accompanied by other movements (plantarflexion and a variety of motions at the hip) that can make it appear to be a lot more when you are sitting in a chair or doing the motion in bare feet. All that to say, your ankle joint may not be as messed up as you think it may be.

(Note that I am using the term active inversion in strictly the medical/PT sense of the word and am describing other movements that can make inversion seem to be a much larger movement than it actually is. It should not be confused with the PMTS concept of tipping to the LTE, or at least not without a good discussion with a qualified coach who can make sure you aren't mixing up concepts and ideas.)
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Re: No eversion

Postby Ken » Mon Mar 25, 2019 9:00 pm

We don't evert. We do not push the ankle to the inside to raise the little toe edge of the foot. We invert. We push the ankle to the outside to raise the big toe edge.

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Re: No eversion

Postby lehrski » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:19 pm

"We don't evert. We invert. We push the ankle to the outside to raise the big toe edge."

I still don't get it. Inversion raises the BTE on the inside ski, but if the outside ski isn't flat, it has to be tipped somehow. So if it's not everted, and according to the video, tipping shouldn't happen from the knee or hip then what?
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Re: No eversion

Postby Max_501 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:44 am

Without eversion we couldn't balance on one ski. HH has written about this topic before:

One footed balance and boot alignment

Even a small assumption creates a ripple effect

lehrski wrote:I still don't get it. Inversion raises the BTE on the inside ski, but if the outside ski isn't flat, it has to be tipped somehow. So if it's not everted, and according to the video, tipping shouldn't happen from the knee or hip then what?


The muscles responsible for eversion (tipping to the BTE) are stronger than the muscles responsible for inversion (tipping to the LTE). If you tip to the BTE first you will end up with an a-frame. If you try to tip simultaneously you will likely end up with an a-frame. Tip the inside foot to LTE first and allow the outside foot to follow the inside foot tipping so it matches the angle of the inside ski naturally.

Note - we start tipping at the inside foot to activate the kinetic chain so we have very precise balance control throughout the turn. If we don't start tipping at the inside foot the kinetic chain is not activated from the base and then much larger muscles are used to attempt to stay in balance (with varying degrees of success).

Coach Geoff gave us this description of how the outside foot is pulled to the BTE due to the activation of the kinetic chain:

geoffda wrote:When you start tipping with the free foot, provided your stance is narrow enough, the movement of tipping that foot (and only that foot) will automatically begin to move your center of mass across your feet and into the new turn. Basically, tipping with the inside foot causes the hips to move laterally so that they are no longer over the base of support (the feet), at which point they can move downward. The movement of the center of mass into the new turn is what pulls the stance foot onto big-toe-edge. If you do something to disrupt the movement of your center of mass into the new turn, then you will interrupt the mechanism that allows big-toe-edge tipping to follow and you will get divergence.
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Re: No eversion

Postby DCM » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:24 am

The movement of the center of mass into the new turn is what pulls the stance foot onto big-toe-edge.


So then for a brushed carve where the stance ski is on a shallower angle, does that mean the center of mass can't move as far into the new turn as it could for an edge-locked carve?
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Re: No eversion

Postby Max_501 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:44 am

DCM wrote:So then for a brushed carve where the stance ski is on a shallower angle, does that mean the center of mass can't move as far into the new turn as it could for an edge-locked carve?


See this thread for details on the mechanics of brushing.

Carving Madness
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Re: No eversion

Postby GThomas » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:42 am

Thank you Max 501 for the posted links for the articles HH posted back in 2007
These confirmed the conclusions I came to myself at the end of skiing this year after much thought time money and effort and helped dot the i's and cross the T's.
I have a question which I think is related but if im wrong please tell me and I will ask separately
As relates to boot fit I came to the point this year of wanting to know whether what is desirable is as many have hypothsised elswhere for sure that the boot ought to fit very snuggly under the medial ankle, so that any pronation/eversion immediately transfers into the shell OR if like myself you have a lot of available eversion it is actually that you want room inside the boot to allow full use of the ankle and contact to only occur at or towards the end of available range of movement ?
In case ive not made myself clear, another way of asking this question is do you avoid any boot contact that restricts your biomechanical function ?
I have gone from a VERY heavily posted (medial side) footbed last year to a £20 off the shelf one this year which allows the foot to be a quiet, with the best one footed balance and a feeling of balanced eversion/inversion and free ankle movement.
Also this year I began for the first time to have sole planing done revealing the pathway to a higher level of possible performance for myself previously unseen.
It is following this that in my boots with a very close meadial wall seemed to be a block or restriction to the fine control of using the feet and ankles
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Re: No eversion

Postby h.harb » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:55 am

A biomechanical lack of eversion due to stiff joints will not improve with exercise or stretching. A foot leaning toward being a cavus foot is normally a high arch with limited movement; because the bones are so tightly packed. Many successful skiers have a tightly packed bone structure. Erich Schlopy who I worked with to get his alignment improved had no eversion but has a world championship medal.

There are a few important things you can do to help this condition. You do have to use your eversion capabilities to get the ski on edge no matter how limited that movement might be. The act of contracting the peroneal muscles (on the outside of the shin) does focus the ankle joint and creates balancing stability. A softer footbed is critical, a hard rigid ached footbed will eliminate any hope. A softer cut out medial boot board can be a solution, I used this with Scholpy and many others who loved it.

Next, the boot and cuff alignment need to be perfect. I don't know anyone in the country who knows how to do this so don't bother hunting around.

As far as all the explanations in this thread even those that are on the right track don't present the whole picture. Eversion can be measured and seen in separate places in the foot and some of these movements may not be eversion of the calcaneus. This maybe mid foot eversion, which can at times be helpful. Being able to lift the little toe near the front of the foot doesn't mean you can evert the calcaneus. We have thousands of documented evaluations and we have seen almost every permutation. Just because you can't get more than 2 or 3 degrees of eversion doesn't mean it will limit your skiing. I hope this helps to understand that you don't need to overplay this condition. There are many world-class skiers with no eversion.
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Re: No eversion

Postby Max_501 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:34 am

Here's another excellent thread from HH on the topic -

Simple Experiment
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Re: No eversion

Postby dewdman42 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:42 pm

That's an incredibly useful thread. Thank you!
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Re: No eversion

Postby lehrski » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:22 pm

Super helpful thread. I do have a very high arch. I was just concerned that I couldn't make my foot/ankle do what Diana's when she was demonstrating tipping in bare feet at the start of the dryland video.
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