Higher Angles...

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Higher Angles...

Postby SkiMoose » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:35 pm

Okay, Here's a question. As suggested by HeluvaSkier a few weeks ago, I have been trying to push it a little bit with speed and pitch lately, and I've come across an interesting problem. As soon as I try carving slalom type turns on a blue pitch, the forces and speeds seem so high they become almost unmanageable. I feel like I am fighting for CA and free foot pull back so hard that I am going to pass out, all while thinking I'm gonna die because the speeds are so high. Going on the Idea that PMTS is simple and efficient, my intuition tells me I am doing something wrong. I don't feel like my legs are doing much work, and it's all coming from the hips and upper body, which is making things really physically exhausting. Am I just not strong enough? My turns feel super easy up to a steep green pitch, but things change drastically from there. Should this be the case? I've been watching a lot of Reilly McGlashan's skiing lately, and he seems to be able to get hip to the snow angles with barely any speed or effort. Is this just an example of a great skier making hard things look effortless, or am I doing something vastly wrong? Am I getting too caught up in the quest for high angles by even asking this? These are the questions...
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby noobSkier » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:10 pm

I've never filmed my carving on steeps but I do it occasionally...so take this for what its worth. What I've noticed is this: if you aren't getting early edge angles in the high-c...you are going to have a bad time; much like you describe.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby h.harb » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:33 am

If you watch Reilly he does those turns on wider skis (72 to 76mm) and on packed soft snow. He is also skiing a short ski 165mm, with 13 or better radius. You have to find the right ski and snow combination. Speed picks up fast if the snow is harder. Also, you have to stay really bent in transition, sucking up your legs. Reilly is short 5'-7" so his CG is close to the snow this helps. I know at Yellowstone on Dreamcatcher, the snow is perfect, I get my hips on the snow there easily. Any sign of stiff legs or pushing will kill angles and build speed immediately. The other tip is suck up your inside leg and pull it back more than you think. Finding the right ski is critical. I skied a Blizzard last Monday that I could do anything on, even on hard snow. Why? Because it bent and had a perfect centered flex point.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby sgarrozzo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:32 am

h.harb wrote:................ Because it bent and had a perfect centered flex point.




Hi Harald you can better explain these two points,........... :D but in particular the second one
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby Max_501 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:02 am

You need to have the Essentials dialed for hip to snow carving on steeper runs. Snow type makes a huge difference in friction/grip. Then there's the skis. Video is needed to provide a response tailored to your skiing.

There's some good stuff in this old thread - Carving in the Steeps
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby h.harb » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:23 am

A word of caution. If you are trying to achieve high angles, make sure you start with a strong inside foot pullback. If you don't the skis can quickly shoot out forward while in the high load phase, I don't need to tell you about the consequences of this. This is also twice as likely on hard snow or with aggressive edge tuning.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby SkiMoose » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:35 pm

Thanks for the responses.
Max: That looks like a great thread, I'll be sure to read my way through that one. I do have video somewhere, it may still be on my camera so I'll have to find it.

noobSkier: I'm sure that deeper flexion in transition as well as increased CA in the top of the turn will help the high C, and will be needed on steeps to get speed control.

Harald: Thanks so much for the great answer. I'm know that I tend to get a little bit stiff as the speeds increase, and my stance is super narrow (boots touching) sometimes, which might limit my ability to retract that inside leg. I will try fight harder for free boot pull back and retraction as you mentioned. That's also super interesting about the differences in snow, body type and equipment. It makes me want to play around with different skis and snow. It also gives me an even greater appreciation for the ability of WC skiers. It's just insane that they are able to ski at that high of a level, with those forces and angles, on ice, on a racecourse! Overall, if I'm reading you correctly, it's likely not as strength related as I was thinking, and carving steeps is hard!
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby Max_501 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:29 pm

Harald brings up a great point. Use extreme caution when attempting to carve steeper slopes because things can go bad quickly! FWIW, I no longer play this game, risk of injury is too high for me. :D



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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby tigernbr » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:41 pm

Is the second vid the famous helluvarelease?
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby noobSkier » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:57 pm

Holy....helluva, were you injured?
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby jbotti » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:54 pm

I agree about the caution (as its me in the first wipe out, many years ago). Having said that Skimoose you are young enough that you can work towards hip on snow skiing on steeps. I got reasonably close over the years and I started skiing at 42. But as we get older the reflexes just are not as quick and if anything goes wrong when the hip is on snow or real close usually the wipeout is not pretty and not fun. But speed control while carving edge locked turns on steeps is the holy grail of true high level expert skiing (think WC skiers who do it all the time on ice or at least the ones that podium do). As Max and HH have stated every essential has to be fully in place one arc after the next in the midst of forces that most have never felt.
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby ErikCO » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:05 pm

I'm guessing this is part of the reason Helluvaskier wears a back brace!
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby h.harb » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:31 pm



Hip on the snow on steeps, 67mm underfoot, 170cm, i80 Head skis, which are no longer available. A 165cm Super Shape would be better.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby h.harb » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:34 pm

Carving on steeps does require a certain level of strength, but not a world cup level.
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Re: Higher Angles...

Postby SkiMoose » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:49 pm

That's just flat out amazing skiing. I think this video is also a great example of allowing yourself to tip to greater edge angles after the apex while flexing the stance ski to start the release. Beautiful stuff...
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