Influence of flexing on hip-CA

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Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby noobSkier » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:58 am

For those of you following my MA thread, you know that I'm currently working on developing hip-CA. We all know how much flexing impacts tipping ROM, how much if any is hip-CA ROM influenced by a flexed position? On dry land, it seems like the answer is "not much", but dynamically I'm noticing that flexing-into-CA by staying relaxed and utilizing rebound is more effective than say "forcing" CA through muscular effort (will get video soon). Am I off base?
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:07 am

CA takes muscular effort because you are moving the pelvis in the opposite direction of travel. If you relax the muscles creating CA the pelvis will naturally return to the direction of travel, referred to as "square to the skis". Unfortunately it is easy to lose CA while flexing so it takes extra effort to hold the CA created earlier in the turn.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby skijim13 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:13 am

During the last Superblue camp we were told to hold the old CA until the releasing ski goes from BTE to the beginning of the LTE.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby ErikCO » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:38 am

Max, if you don't mind, could you clarify this a bit. Last week at Superblue my group and I were working with Walter, primarily on CA/CB. One of the big things he was focusing on was the need to relax the outside leg and flex it to enable more movement at the pelvis. Specifically, in the last 1/3 of the turn if we did not focus on flexing of both the inside leg and the outside leg we would not be able to obtain the degree of movement that is needed. This could be compensated for by twisting of the torso (which takes a fair amount of muscular effort) but that puts you in a biomechanically weak position and should generally be avoided. I guess the clarification I'm asking for is on your saying that keeping your CA requires effort and Walter focusing on relaxing into CA/CB.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:53 am

ErikCO wrote:I guess the clarification I'm asking for is on your saying that keeping your CA requires effort and Walter focusing on relaxing into CA/CB.


It sounds like you are mixing up:

1 - flexing/relaxing the legs to release

with

2 - creating and then holding CA during the release
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby h.harb » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:57 am

Holding CA is one of the biggest missing principles of expert, high-end skiing and up until now only the domain of the highest level skiers in any discipline. This principle has never been explained prior to PMTS and Harb Ski Systems. Why? Because it's hard to see, understand and dissect and it's even harder to describe and teach. PSIA doesn't even acknowledge that teaching CA is a priority let alone understand how to teach or how to hold it during the release. USSA has no idea how to teach this important critical part of skiing that is the foundation for the setting up the next turn. What I'm saying is no one in ski teaching has demonstrated this critical component, until Harb Ski systems.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby ErikCO » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:14 am

Max_501 wrote:It sounds like you are mixing up:

1 - flexing/relaxing the legs to release

with

2 - creating and then holding CA during the release


Hmm. You may be correct. I was fairly certain, however, that what we were talking about in camp was a tensing of the outside leg blocking movement at the hips and therefore limiting both CA/CB. If I'm not making sense, I can shoot some static video later today showing what I thought we were talking about in camp. Not trying to confuse anyone here, just trying to make certain I understand.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:29 am

ErikCO wrote:...however, that what we were talking about in camp was a tensing of the outside leg blocking movement at the hips and therefore limiting both CA/CB.


OK, now I see the confusion.

I was addressing this part of the first post:

noobSkier wrote:...but dynamically I'm noticing that flexing-into-CA by staying relaxed and utilizing rebound is more effective than say "forcing" CA through muscular effort


First, we need CA long before we begin flexing so the idea of "flexing-into-CA" doesn't capture the correct timing. Second, creating CA requires a strong muscular effort and holding it through the edge change is a challenge because the pelvis will reset to square if you relax the muscles holding CA. It would be trivial to hold CA through the release if all we had to do was relax the legs.

I didn't address the first part of the original post because if a skier is releasing properly (eg. flexing/relaxing the legs) then the range of motion increase is already there.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby noobSkier » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:39 am

I should have been more specific in that statement. "flexing-into-MORE-CA" is more accurate I think.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby Max_501 » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:49 am

noobSkier wrote:I should have been more specific in that statement. "flexing-into-MORE-CA" is more accurate I think.


That fits better but flexing on its own won't create more CA. If you want more CA you need to crank up those CA muscles and make it happen!
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby noobSkier » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:59 am

Thanks for putting all the pieces together. If I can summarize with an analogy:

CA/CB enhances tipping, but you still have to tip; Flexing enhances CA, but you still have to CA.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby h.harb » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:05 pm

Sometimes people are too literal. Holding your counter, you have to have it first. Most give it up before you even begin releasing. Holding it while transitioning isn't a big effort if you have it to begin with. I sense that is where you are disconnected from the understanding.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby h.harb » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:14 pm

I guess the clarification I'm asking for is on your saying that keeping your CA requires effort and Walter focusing on relaxing into CA/CB.


Read your question! You are asking a question for two separate movements and body parts, they are not to be lumped into one! Creating and keeping you CA takes what Max501 said about the pelvis. Relaxing the muscles refers to the holding ski angles with the stance leg. It's not directed toward relaxing the pelvis to get CA! As far as flexing or relaxing both the uphill and stance leg, the idea is if you flex the uphill LTE leg, you will not likely be extending it, which many people do.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby h.harb » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:17 pm

If you watch our coaches skiing they don't have a hesitation in the transition. The advice Walter was trying to get across was to release directly out of an arc into another arc without the interference of pushing or extending, with either leg. That being said, there is a moment where the pelvis or hips don't move, "in a rotational manner", they move across and over the skis to create new angles, And yes, as soon as the LTE is engaged or tipped in the new high C, that is the point at which CA (pelvis moves with counter rotation) changes for the new turn. These actions described must be seen as continuous or connected movements; we only break them down and separate them so you can put all the parts together without leaving out a piece.
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Re: Influence of flexing on hip-CA

Postby noobSkier » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:38 pm

That makes perfect sense HH, thanks for weighing in...forgive our ignorance, we are trying :)
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