One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

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One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Bun-chan » Mon May 28, 2018 2:29 pm

Could someone please explain to me the difference between the one-footed release and the Super Phantom? Is it just the former is static and the latter is dynamic? Or am I just mistaken?
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Max_501 » Tue May 29, 2018 9:23 am

You may be confusing the One Footed Release DRILL (starts from a static position) with a One Footed Release (Super Phantom - which is one way to release while skiing).
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Bun-chan » Tue May 29, 2018 11:35 am

Max_501 wrote:You may be confusing the One Footed Release DRILL (starts from a static position) with a One Footed Release (Super Phantom - which is one way to release while skiing).


Let me rephrase my question: Is One-footed release = Super Phantom? That's how I have interpreted, but I just want to get the terminologies clarified. Thanks.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby mardale » Tue May 29, 2018 7:46 pm

As I understand it, the One Footed Release is a release, while the Super Phantom is a way to turn. The SP was introduced because readers misunderstood and were doing the Phantom "wrong" - the difference between the SP and the Phantom being that the SP requires an OFR, specifically transferring balance to the new stance ski while it's still on its little toe edge. That unweights the new free foot early and flexes the new free leg early, so it can tip early.

So the correct relationship, I think, is to say that the OFR is a prerequisite for the SP. You also have to transfer before the skis are flat and also tip.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby jbotti » Tue May 29, 2018 8:53 pm

A super phantom is a one footed release but not all one footed releases are SPs. Its all about when Release Transfer and Engagement occur. In a super phantom engagement of the new stance occurs after the old stance ski is released (in this case lifted) and after weight has been transferred to the new stance ski, In a super phantom transfer occurs before both release and engagement. In any other one footed release where any of the three (RT and E) occur in any different order it's not a SP. And this is why practicing the SP until it becomes the default movement is so important because its the only sure fire way to truly eliminate the stem from ones skiing. Weight is transferred to the new ski when it is still on its LTE. The order for SP is actually TRE (transfer, release, engage).
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby skijim13 » Wed May 30, 2018 9:08 am

Great post. I think many people when they start to learn PMTS get the types of releases confused.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Robert0325 » Wed May 30, 2018 3:35 pm

I can’t see how you carry out a one footed release without it initiating a Super Phantom?
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby jbotti » Wed May 30, 2018 4:33 pm

Engage the big toe edge of the new stance ski before releasing the BTE of the old stance ski. We know this is possible because we see it all the time in skiing (it's called a stem). Now when that person releases the stance foot by lifting it, they are doing a one footed release but it surely is not a SP. In this case the order was ETR (engage,transfer,release).

When a skier transfers weight to the new stance ski when it is no longer on its LTE (so when its flat) its also not a SP. We see this all the time and this can be done with a one footed release while lifting the old stance ski.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Robert0325 » Thu May 31, 2018 9:07 am

jbotti wrote:Engage the big toe edge of the new stance ski before releasing the BTE of the old stance ski. We know this is possible because we see it all the time in skiing (it's called a stem). Now when that person releases the stance foot by lifting it, they are doing a one footed release but it surely is not a SP. In this case the order was ETR (engage,transfer,release).

When a skier transfers weight to the new stance ski when it is no longer on its LTE (so when its flat) its also not a SP. We see this all the time and this can be done with a one footed release while lifting the old stance ski.

Ah yes good point, I see what you mean. But in terms of good PMTS then surely a one footed release is always an SP?
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Bun-chan » Thu May 31, 2018 10:41 am

I always thought there is only one One-footed release, which starts with balancing on the LTE of the uphill ski. But, anyway, my original question was what the difference between One-footed release and Super Phantom is. I have been watching ACBAES2 video segments repeatedly for the last few days and also luckily was given a great insight by a PMTS expert. I feel I now have a clearer picture now. I hope someone can tell me if my observations/interpretations are correct:

In the video, Harold explains Two-Footed Release (TFR) and then One-Footed Release (OFR). In TFR, I see "R"elease (flattening of skis); Balance "T"ransfer; and Edge "E"ngagement happen in that order.

So, let's say TFR = R+T+E ...........1)

In OFR, on the other hand, the move starts from the LTE of the uphill ski. So, in that exercise segment, OFR is "R"elease and "E"ngage, and "T"ransfer is not included since the exercise assumes that it had already happened. In other words, OFR only has two elements in the exercise.

So, let's say OFR = R+E ..........2)

Then, Harold introduces Super Phantom (SP). It starts with traversing. Then, I see "T"ransfer of Balance (lifting the stance ski to balance on the LTE of the uphill ski); "R"elease; and "E"ngage.

So, let's say SP = T+R+E .........3)

Therefore, from 2) and 3),

SP = T + OFR. In other words, SP is "T"ransfer (of Balance) and OFR. So, I think this is the answer to my own question.

Let me dig a little further. In the video, Harold then introduces Weighted Release (WR). I see "R"elease; "E"ngage; and "Transfer" in this order.

So, let's say WR = R+E+T ........4)

From 3), a) and 4), I can now see three different "T"ransfer timings:

SP = T+R+E (at the beginning)
TFR = R+T+E (in the middle)
WR = R+E+T (at the end)

Then, I wondered what Phantom Move is. Is Phantom Move = E? It's not about "T"ransfer or "R"elease, so it's just "E"ngage? If I replace "E" with Phantom in any of the three above, it seems to make sense.

Any comments, corrections, confirmations, etc. would be appreciated.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby jbotti » Thu May 31, 2018 12:54 pm

While it's fine to get down to the nitty gritty with knowledge and understanding on releases and movements, let's be clear that it is unlikely to help one's skiing. This is the beauty of PMTS, HH has built a progression to take a skier from wedging in every turn to the true PMTS expert level. To accomplish this the only thing one has to do is to do the drills correctly (which in most instances there are video tutorials on them either from the book videos or online at the HSS site) and practice these drills until they become default movements.

Getting back to the issue of releases and when one uses each one, I know of no one that is choosing their releases ahead of time. That is to say that no one thinks I m going to do 5 OFRs followed by 3 TFR's followed by four Weighted releases followed by 4 SPs while they are free skiing. What any good PMTS skier needs is the ability to do all the releases and to be able to use them when the terrain dictates it. Almost no one is trying to do weighted releases in bumps but good skiers often end up with one because it's the only one that was available to them based on where everything was positioned at this point in the run (same with WC athletes in that weighted releases are almost always the result of a mistake).

If you do the drills, do them correctly and practice them until they are default movements you will have all the releases at your disposal (and you will naturally use each one when the terrain dictates it or when the turn you want dictates it). Personally I would rather be the guy that can't name the releases or explain them but can do them all effortlessly than be the guy that can name them, explain them but can't ski them.

Always best not to make this more complicated than it needs to be. Follow the progression, do the drills correctly and perfectly, practice them til they become default movements= Expert Skiing and more fun skiing than you ever thought you would have!!
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby geoffda » Thu May 31, 2018 10:08 pm

To be crystal clear, since Max_501's simple and correct answer from 10 posts ago was apparently ignored, when you ski with a Super Phantom, you are using a One-Footed Release.

Harald invented the term "Super Phantom" because he found that people were thinking that the Phantom Move was just lift, touch, and tip with the stance foot and they weren't grasping the necessity of little-toe edge balance in the transition.

Harald considers the Release, Transfer, Engage sequence to be true for all releases except the full weighted release (which is Release, Engage, Transfer). Since you have to flex the old stance leg to transfer balance, the release always happens before the transfer. In the general case (i.e., ordinary skiing) this is true.

The various releases describe a continuum that reflects when (and to what extent) the balance (and weight) transfer occurs in the arc. With a One-Footed Release, the balance transfer occurs immediately in concert with the release and the weight transfer is total. With a Two-Footed Release, the transfer happens more slowly. Balance will be established somewhat later in the top of the arc and weight transfer may be less than total. With a Weighted Release, the balance transfer is the latest of all since it happens after engagement. Weight transfer may be be less than total.

Like JBotti said, none of this stuff is going to help anyone ski better. I don't want to say that these questions aren't welcome, since they have been asked before, but the purpose of this forum is not to provide a place for people to discuss skiing. There are plenty of other places on the internet where skiing minutiae can be discussed, questioned and argued ad-nauseum. The PMTS forum exists to provide technical support to people who are trying to learn our system. If people have specific questions about how to make a movement or how a drill works, by all means, they should ask. But speculating about how some aspect of skiing works, getting overly technical, talking about physics--these things all go against the ethos of the forum. The goal is to keep the forum high quality, where the vast majority of posts contain either useful questions or correct, informative answers. Good questions generally have answers which will result in enabling someone to improve their skiing. Alternatively, good questions can clarify a term or definition. Asking about the difference between OFR and Super Phantom is a reasonable question, but this thread should have ended after Max_501's post when it was answered originally and certainly after JBotti's first post when it was answered again. Please, lets try to avoid over-complicating things. PMTS is designed to be simple and if people would just do the drills exactly as they are laid out in the books, they will realize that many of their questions are unnecessary.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby geoffda » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:52 pm

This is from Diana and while it was directed at a slightly different question (the difference between the Two-Footed Release and the Weighted Release), I'm adding it to the thread because it is germane to some of the questions being asked and while similar to my post above, it includes some additional wording that I think many will find useful.

>>>>

The two-footed release and the weighted release really aren't two different things. They are two different points on a spectrum. The spectrum of release goes from a one-footed release (lift & tilt or Super Phantom). through the two-footed release, all the way to the weighted release. What is the same across the spectrum is that the downhill leg bends (flexes or shortens) and the downhill foot rolls toward its LTE. What is different across the spectrum is when the transfer of balance occurs relative to the edge change. In the Super Phantom, the transfer is complete before the edge change. In the weighted release, the transfer of balance happens after the edge change. In the two-footed release, the transfer of balance happens about when the edges are changing (resulting in a 50-50 moment of balance between the feet when the skis go through flat). Expert skiers absolutely move around within that spectrum seamlessly. Sometimes the type of release is done knowingly, or as a choice. Many times, the main focus is on bending the downhill leg and tipping that foot toward its LTE, and the actual moment of transfer isn't at the top of the skier's focus.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby h.harb » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:17 pm

It's obvious that there are almost as many ways to learn sports as there are people. The most important comment so far that I've read is by JBotti, basically what John said is, none of this academic discussion will make you learn faster, help you become a better skier or make it easier.

PMTS is a "movement instructional system", by trying to dissect it into minutia and keep it in your brain, all you do is confuse the movement understanding process needed on snow with your own mind filled clutter.

Once you get on the slopes, you will have to switch gears completely and focus on a very simple body part and that body part will then make the correct movement that leads you to the next one.

Where studying PMTS in print, what really goes wrong is getting into a stagnant or stationary focus; which has no relationship or relevance to connecting movements when you try to make it happen on snow, while skiing.

This discussion in this thread has been around for at least 15 years, since I introduced the Super Phantom. Why did I need the Super Phantom, because readers of my first book, when returning to snow, were missing the transition to the uphill little toe edge? This is also known as the "wedge blocker".

PMTS is the only system in the world that teaches the wedge blocker or Super Phantom. Others may have copied it but PMTS was the first by a huge margin. There is no difference between the two, the "Super Phantom is just and only just a step further for those who are doing an incomplete P.M. transition, which is the most common incorrect movement in skiing. "Pushing the uphill ski to the big toe edge.

And if you haven't learned a strong complete "Super Phantom", your push to the big toe edge will show up everywhere, especially in bumps, in slalom, on crud and on steeps.

Why do you think Hirscher is so dominant? he has the best "Super Phantom.

Now to address the two-footed release, the difference in it is that there is an evenly weighted (foot to foot) transition with delayed outside ski pressure. This difference is produced by less ski lifting, and more progressive stance leg flexing and tipping. The inside foot still has to evolve into the free foot tipping foot before the falline, and counter-acting needs to be in place earlier or the outside ski will not engage properly.

The forum here is all well and good, but when you finally get to a Harb Camp, your whole approach will have to change, so don't get too involved in the minutia or trying to re-write PMTS terminology to suit your terms. It won't help, PMTS is well planned and well figured out, diverting or reinventing it into your own language won't help your on snow performance. We have observed this for over 25 years, simple movements that can be achieved, build your skiing, not pages or text.


Remember these two statements and stay with them, and they will be your fastest way to success.
There are two things that happen every time someone has a breakthrough in their skiing. I know this because everytime people have a breakthrough I ask them what they did. The two answers are, and they are 99% consistent for all skiers.

!. I did exactly what to told me to do. (which is as it is written)
2. I did it more than I ever thought I needed to.

Those two answers and approaches are your keys to faster success.
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Re: One-footed release vs. Super Phantom

Postby Bun-chan » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:59 pm

I really appreciate the people who took time to read my question (Is One-Footed Release the same as Super Phantom?) and respond, but am frankly surprised to see different answers and explanations to a seemingly simple question. All I was expecting is Yes, No or a simple clarification about the difference if any. But the more responses I see, the more I felt that perhaps there might be more to it than Yes or No.

Then, I tried to show what my understanding is by breaking the movements down, hoping someone can give me a short black and white answer or find any misunderstanding that I might have. I had no intention of introducing new ideas, re-writing PMTS or inventing terminologies. I was just hoping to see my simple question answered by some PMTS expert. That's all.

In any case, if I read Harald's comment correctly, the answer seems to be Yes, i.e., they are the same ("There is no difference between the two, the "Super Phantom is just and only just a step further for those who are doing an incomplete P.M. transition").

Just to add: No one knows me in this forum, but I thought I should talk about my experiences since some seem to have a wrong idea about me. Unlike some seem to suggest, I am not a kind of person trying to over-analyze things only in his head without actually doing anyting. I believe in practicing and repeating until my body automatically move and respond. I have watched Harald's and Diana's videos countless times to burn the images in my memory so that I can replay them in my head while I actually pratice on a slope. I go back and forth between reading, video-watching and praticing. I even hear their narations and the music in my head as I practice.

Since I "discovered" Harald Harb's book by chance at a book store in early 2000s, I have been hooked by PMTS. In 2003, when I saw all the PMTS camp instructors ski down the slope of A-Basin after we (students) finished the first run, I was blown away. I've never seen extreme carving like that. I still remember that I felt chill in my spine. I felt PMTS is the ultimate skiing.

Three seasons ago, I restarted skiing after 12 years of hiatus. One day, while I was doing usual Two-Footed Release exercise and transitioning into short linked turns, I suddenly felt that I was unintentionally bleding Two-Footed, One-Footed and Weighted Releases. It happened by accident, but I thought that was what Harald meant by "using all four edges of skis" in his video. It gave me a similar excitement that I felt at the moment when I first learned to ride a bike as a child. I would say it was a breakthrough for me.

Also, recently, I was fortunate enough to be able to share the above experience with a great PMTS skier who told me that the only difference between the release moves is timing of balance transfer and that the actual movement of transfer isn't at the top of the skier's focus. (I think this is what jbotti explained well in his comment about free skiing. Thank you jobtti. You always give me great insights.) That comment really meant a lot to me since it helps me understand the mechanisms better. I actually printed out the note and put it in front of my desk.

For me, understanding how things work and what they are for is important and necessary to actually do them. An Olympian whom I admire says that, when you ski drills, it is important to understand why you are doing them and how they help your skiing. She says just simply doing drills is not enough. I agree.

Harald, Diana and PMTS really changed my skiing. PMTS breaks down seemingly seamless skiing move into descrete components so that we understand the mechanisms in detail. But of course, we practice to build up those components back to achive seamless skiing movment. At least, that is how I see it. And, I don't find a similar teaching system elsewhere.

Since I had a serious injury and cannot move well (plus the season ended for me), I decided to review all the videos and books so that I can be ready for the next season. While I was watching ACBAES2 video, I came up my original question. I am a kind of person who doesn't feel comfortable leaving things fuzzy or unanswered. That is why I posted the question in this forum. Again, I had no intention of upsetting or influencing anyone.

I don't believe I ever used any offensive language or expressions in this forum. But if I made any inappropriate comment that is against the guideline of this forum, please kindly let me know. In the past, some people in this forum gave me valuable responses to me. I really appreciate their help.

I would like to stay as a member here. This is a great forum. But if there is any reason that I should not belong here, please let me know and please kindly explain why. I have no hidden agenda. I have nothing to brag about or show off. I have no intention of influencing people here. As an older man, I just simply want to improve my skiing and keep skiing as long as I can. And, I know there are great skiers who are willing to help people like me. But apparently some people were offended by the way I asked questions and made comments. I would appreciate it if anyone can give me some suggestions about proper protocols here.
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