Which drills to do?

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Which drills to do?

Postby skiffie » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:44 pm

Quick question for forum minds.

Dad has a persistent wedge. He only does phantoms but I noticed that there's no engagement on the uphill LTE before tipping the downhill foot. But I can't figure out which drill to use to get rid of this. I did just reread the books but may have missed something? But the book drills tell you to make sure you are engaging the LTE before tipping to do the drill, but this is the exact problem...

As for me, I've fixed up some of the suggestions from my previous post on washing out tails, and happy to report many of those problems have improved. However I occasionally find I have a push at the end of the turn even though my entry is fine (no wedge), and even if I am doing a (super) phantom with all my weight on the outside ski, etc.

Help would be appreciated! thank you :)
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby Cleveland » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:12 pm

Hi Skiffie,

I believe the mini-javelin exercise does just what you need. My understanding is that the mini-javelin entails: 1) lifting the old stance ski and holding it's tip over the tip of the uphill ski, 2) balancing briefly on the LTE of the uphill ski, and only then 3) tipping the lifted ski to it's LTE causing the weighted uphill ski to roll over to its BTE.

Anyone correct if I've got anything wrong.
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby Max_501 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:59 pm

The mini Javelin is probably too advanced.

I'd suggest working on the "Eliminate the Wedge" evideo series.

https://harbskisystems.com/collections/evideos
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby skiffie » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:34 pm

Great, thank you both.

Would you have any suggestions for me (end of turn occasional push)? This happens even if in a super phantom with the free foot in the air.
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby DougD » Thu Mar 01, 2018 7:30 am

skiffie wrote:Great, thank you both.

Would you have any suggestions for me (end of turn occasional push)? This happens even if in a super phantom with the free foot in the air.

Need video to be sure of the movement pattern, but as a gedankenexperiment:

Maintaining edgehold and balance at turn's end requires continual increasing of Tipping + CA + CB. If any of these essentials is missing or deficient, especially on hard snow or ice, the stance ski can go sideways and compromise balance. Fear of this often causes a stance ski push, which makes the problem worse. From your description it's impossible to know which of these three Essential Movements may be lacking. It can't hurt to work on all three, but if you want a SMIM, video is necessary.

Skiing ice is the proof and as a NE skier I have many opportunities. As my skis turn out of the fall line into the bottom of the turn, I've learned to really crank CB (while still increasing Tipping + CA):
  • If the torso isn't bending and facing out over the stance ski, the ski will break loose and I'll lose balance to the inside. Ugly...
  • If the torso is bending and facing out over the stance ski, the ski holds better. Even if it does break loose I don't lose balance, my skis and body just displace laterally as a unit (Geoffda's phrase). It's a wonderful thing... skiing in balanced arcs while others are flailing in ugly, Z-shapes.

Try the Angry Mother drills and really max out CA and CB at turn's end. Also the NSPP drills and emphasize a strong (forward & high) inside hand. Exaggerate like crazy; if it feels about right, you probably need more. If deficient upper body essentials are the problem, these drills may addresss it.

... subject to correction by Max_501 or another coach/expert, which I'm not.
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby geoffda » Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:26 pm

Assuming it is possible for your dad to balance on LTE, counteracting is probably the movement that is lacking. But you should confirm he can balance if you haven't already. On a green slope, have him stand with his skis parallel to the fall line, move his hips to face his zipper down the hill, and then try to remain in balance while balancing on the LTE of the uphill ski and lifting the downhill ski. Pole tips should be in the air, if possible. Observe whether he can balance on both LTEs. Then have him do a gentle traverse while balancing on the LTE of the uphill ski and lifting the downhill ski. He'll need to face his zipper down the hill while doing this. As with all drills, make sure he looks up the hill for traffic before starting. Have him do this on both LTEs. If he has trouble balancing, he may need some boot adjustments before he will have success with the movements.

If he can balance, watch what is happening with the upper body during transition. If he is using any kind of upper body rotation to start the turn, he won't be able to hold his LTE. Have him start by doing half turns on a gentle slope (step tips straight down the fall line and then phantom move finish to a stop). While the turn is progressing, have him drag his inside (same side as the free, or lifted foot, same side as the direction of the turn) pole tip on the snow and push it forward. The goal is that as he rides his skis to a stop, the inside pole tip should be positioned directly above the inside ski tip. He should also see an arc in the snow corresponding to the path of the dragged pole--which means he has to push hard to make this happen. In addition to having the inside pole tip above the inside ski tip, his outside pole tip should be anywhere from directly below the heel piece of the outside ski to 45 degrees behind it. The latter is an exaggeration, but is a worthwhile target when developing CA. His zipper should be facing down the hill at the turn finish. His hips should be fully counteracted; i.e. he should have exhausted the range of motion that he has. Have him do several of these half turns to a stop in both directions and have him run through these cues and see if he is getting a good turn finish. He should get in the habit of checking off these cues whenever he comes to a stop. Once he has done a bunch of the half turns, have him link two turns, still pushing the inside hand, come to a stop and check his cues. Make sure he practices coming to a stop on both sides (which means starting from different sides). After doing several of those, have him ski a run focusing on pushing the inside pole. Once he gets comfortable with the inside pole push, he can try to add the Super Phantom transition back.

Like DougD suggested, Angry Mother is also a great drill for isolating CA. It can also help if his upper body rotation is caused by swinging his poles around.

Once you have eliminated any upper body rotation, if he is still having trouble with LTE balance, you can work into it by doing some LTE traverses where you just tap the tail of the downhill ski while balancing on the uphill ski. From there, instead of tapping the downhill ski, hold the lifted ski against the uphill boot for a moment (as if starting a Super Phantom). Then place it back down on the snow (instead of tipping). After a few traverses like that (and again, watch for traffic), you can build into a Super Phantom. Start on a gentle green slope and step tips facing the fall line. While holding himself with poles, have him establish balance on LTE, then release the poles to begin moving down the hill. Lift, touch and tilt the other (free) foot for a Phantom Move finish to a stop. Do a few of these in both directions. Then facing the fall line, have him step tips a step or two in one direction so he is no longer facing directly down the fall line. Repeat the process of establishing LTE (he'll need CA now--zipper down the hill), release the poles, and lift, touch, and tilt to a finish. After a few of these, keep stepping tips until the starting point is skis perpendicular to the fall line. At that point, he would be doing a stationary one-footed release. That may be too hard, but hopefully he was able to get some LTE engagement when the skis were just slightly off perpendicular and he had some movement. Like Max_501 suggested, the Wedge Blocker series is great and will have probably all of what I just described in it.

Ok, for you. Without seeing video, this is a guess on SMIM, but if you have a tail push, focus on flexing. Not only to release, but to engage. Somewhere in transition, you are extending in order to push tails. Boot-touch drills would be good for you, as would placing your poles across your thighs and attempting to keep them touching both thighs while you turn. (See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5278 for a picture of Harald demonstrating this drill). Another good drill would be doube pole drag, holding your hands below the grips. Make sure you keep both pole tips in the snow at all times. Pay attention to the uphill pole tip in transition--if the uphill tip comes off the snow, you extended.

Once you've done some work with flexing, work on releasing. On a moderate slope, start with skis across the hill, hold yourself on uphill LTE, zipper facing down the hill, then flatten the downhill ski. You are still holding yourself, but now you have one ski completely flat. Now you have to relax the uphill leg and let the up hill hip move downward and outward--meaning the hips move down the hill. This should cause the uphill ski to flatten and you should begin sliding sideways. Engage the uphill LTE to brake to a stop. Try this repeatedly from both sides. Then do the same thing, but once you start to slide, pull you feet back. The tips should begin to drop. Keep your feet held back and let the tips seek the fall line. Once you are pointed straight down the hill, Phantom Move finish to a stop. Repeat several times, both sides. The goal is to develop patience at the top of the turn. You don't need to be in a hurry to get your skis around. As long as the tips are above the fall line, you have plenty of time. From there, work into a stationary two footed release. If you can get that, try linking two footed releases. If the stationary two footed release seems too hard, try releasing from a traverse. In a gentle traverse, flex and tip the downhill ski (while relaxing the uphill hips and leg, just like a sideslip). As soon as the release happens and the tips seek the fall line, tip your uphill foot back towards the hill (letting the down hill foot follow the tipping) to bring the ski tips back up into the traverse. Repeat across the hill (watching out for traffic). If you can develop a release that doesn't involve a push, it is a relatively easy matter to continue through to engaging the new edges without a push. Once you begin flexing the old stance ski to trigger the release, just keep flexing it and tipping it into and throughout the duration of the new turn.
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby DougD » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:02 pm

I stand humbly corrected!
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby skiffie » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:55 pm

Amazing, thank you SO much Geoff! I will pass all that info along.

Boot-touch drills would be good for you, as would placing your poles across your thighs and attempting to keep them touching both thighs while you turn. (See this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5278 for a picture of Harald demonstrating this drill).


I actually tried the pole thighs drill today and they did stay touching both thighs, but I got a lot of thigh burn - I guess I got back in my stance. Will have to try that again.

Another good drill would be doube pole drag, holding your hands below the grips. Make sure you keep both pole tips in the snow at all times. Pay attention to the uphill pole tip in transition--if the uphill tip comes off the snow, you extended.


I remember you teaching me this drill at camp :-) I do still try and watch this when I am skiing.

On a moderate slope, start with skis across the hill, hold yourself on uphill LTE, zipper facing down the hill, then flatten the downhill ski. You are still holding yourself, but now you have one ski completely flat. Now you have to relax the uphill leg and let the up hill hip move downward and outward--meaning the hips move down the hill. This should cause the uphill ski to flatten and you should begin sliding sideways.


This is also how you begin a brushed carve, is it not? That's actually the best explanation of how to let the uphill ski go that I have seen - finally makes sense now!! Thanks :mrgreen:

You don't need to be in a hurry to get your skis around. As long as the tips are above the fall line, you have plenty of time.


Just to clarify I don't usually have issues getting the skis around - they go through the top of the arc just fine. If I do throw them out to the side (the push) it's at the end of the turn and/or trying to angulate. I will work on the extending drills and all the others. Thank you so much! And hopefully I will have video later this week :)
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby DougD » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:40 am

skiffie wrote:
geoffda wrote: On a moderate slope, start with skis across the hill, hold yourself on uphill LTE, zipper facing down the hill, then flatten the downhill ski. You are still holding yourself, but now you have one ski completely flat. Now you have to relax the uphill leg and let the up hill hip move downward and outward--meaning the hips move down the hill. This should cause the uphill ski to flatten and you should begin sliding sideways.


This is also how you begin a brushed carve, is it not? That's actually the best explanation of how to let the uphill ski go that I have seen - finally makes sense now!! Thanks :mrgreen:


Great description Indeed. I just tried this standing at my desk. There's no downhill and thus no sliding, but the hip movement and resulting (flexed, passive) edge change from LTE toward BTE felt exactly how my good PMTS turn entries feel. I'll be doing this on snow to help my still non-bulletproof transitions, especially from L footers to R footers. Thanks, Geoff!!!
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby skiffie » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:45 pm

DougD wrote:Great description Indeed. I just tried this standing at my desk. There's no downhill and thus no sliding, but the hip movement and resulting (flexed, passive) edge change from LTE toward BTE felt exactly how my good PMTS turn entries feel. I'll be doing this on snow to help my still non-bulletproof transitions, especially from L footers to R footers. Thanks, Geoff!!!


Just tried this myself - did your hip also go lower? I tried it flexed (my hip just relaxed) and not flexed, at which point I noticed I had to flex to be able to let the hip go.

Max_501 wrote:The mini Javelin is probably too advanced.

I'd suggest working on the "Eliminate the Wedge" evideo series.

https://harbskisystems.com/collections/evideos


A little confused - we have the Expert Skier 1 and 2 DVDs, but are the Eliminate the Wedge (and the Angry Mother) in those or only in the eVideos?

By the way, was just watching ES2, and the section on the 'Arch and Hand Lift' says to lift the arm on the same side as the free foot to practice CA. I've noticed a lot of people in races doing the exact opposite... very obvious with Hirscher here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ET9QzyEMeyU flailing the opposite arm to the direction he's turning. Anyone know what this is about? Just curious.
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby Vailsteve » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:34 pm

Check out this video of Diana...look at her arms and the superimposed red arrows. This may answer your question.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dP_nmVXVknU
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby skiffie » Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:22 pm

Vailsteve wrote:Check out this video of Diana...look at her arms and the superimposed red arrows. This may answer your question.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dP_nmVXVknU


Hmm... this is the same as the part of the ES2 video I found, where you lift the arm on the same side as the foot you are tipping. But the racers do the opposite - lifting the opposite arm to the direction they are about to turn. Have I misunderstood something?
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby Max_501 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:11 pm

Do the movements as described in the books and video
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby h.harb » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:23 pm

Hmm... this is the same as the part of the ES2 video I found, where you lift the arm on the same side as the foot you are tipping. But the racers do the opposite


cool, go ahead see how that works for you.
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Re: Which drills to do?

Postby skiffie » Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:37 pm

h.harb wrote:
Hmm... this is the same as the part of the ES2 video I found, where you lift the arm on the same side as the foot you are tipping. But the racers do the opposite


cool, go ahead see how that works for you.


That was really unnecessary. I wasn't planning on doing it - I was just asking why they look like they are doing the opposite.

Do the movements as described in the books and video


That was the plan. I was simply asking a question, as I was curious.
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