Straight ski experiment

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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby Max_501 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:09 am

noobSkier wrote:It looks like I'm dumping the hip alot in the straight ski clip. I wasn't getting any edge hold from the ski by tipping; probably due to insufficient pullback, like Harald alluded to. Seems like I was compensating the ineffective tipping by dumping my COM to this inside. Maybe I'm doing this to some extent on parabolics as well?


Start from the feet up. Watch the action of the tails. What makes them whip from side to side on the straight skis. Then compare to the MA footage to see if there is some of the same movement there.

noobSkier wrote:Do you think it would be useful to put on the straight skis a couple times a week?


Absolutely not!

Heluva wrote this a while back:

From a coaching standpoint, we are here to help those who come to this site ski better, using PMTS movements, on equipment that will make the learning process easier and more rewarding. Putting a skier on equipment that does not align with this mission is a disservice to the skier and a waste of the coach’s time. When a coach who has coached dozens, to hundreds, of PMTS students says “that ski won’t work for what you’re trying to do”—believe them.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby h.harb » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:53 am

The main differences between what most skiers do on straight skis and what World Cup racers did or someone like Gerber is doing, is the strong retraction movement. We are talking here about aggressive short turns, not ski instructor demo skiing. On straight skis you can't just expect to "flex" yourself into the new angles and expect the ski will take you around the next turn. One can "fake" it on shaped skis because on moderate terrain you don't have to pull back or retract the legs as you have to do with straights.

The technical competence for skiing on straight skis well requires a much higher level of development. The combining of strong retraction with changing edges in transition before you set the skis back on the snow requires rebound, strong lower body tipping, retraction and pull back. And don't underestimate the counter acting. Watch how quickly Gerber counteracts on ever edge change. However, he still lands on the new edges with them already at high angles, even if there is no carve above the falline.

My first thoughts when shaped skis came out was that now we would be able to teach everyone how to ski into a high C type arc. Unfortunately for skiing, PMTS is the only system to support that concept. From my racing days to shaped skis, I never changed my movements, my straight ski skiing allowed me to use the same movements except I could be traveling in two directions at the same time much more aggressively. My Cg going downhill and my lower body going inside and my feet going around in a circle, from the upside down position.

One statement that is totally correct, if you are not doing what I am describing here, on straight skis, you probably aren't doing it on shaped skis either. The straight ski is a magnifying glass for your technique for shaped ski skiing.

The TT teaching systems approach will get you only as far as possibly, "if you are talented", to a hard edge set with an extension. It can't result in what Gerber is showing. Because, as soon as you start thinking or using steering or that the skis should be out to the side, for them to be on edge, it's too late. Steering movements defeat the timing to get the lower body on edge for the new turn. Everything has to be perfectly in place to ski like Gerber.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby noobSkier » Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:47 pm

Ok, I watched all my videos closely and I think I've got it. On the straight skis I'm pushing on the stance ski to get the tails around. On the parabolics I'm doing the same thing to a lesser extent to compensate for late edges due to weak/non-existent retraction. The side effect is that I'm unable to get sufficient stance leg extension, which also make the hip problem worse.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby h.harb » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:21 pm

Yes, that is correct, stance ski side lengthening comes out of, inside leg flexing/tipping and hip counter-acting. This allows the inside hip to come closer to the snow. At first you have to learn the balance, this requires many runs doing a round arc with a "high C' release, very slowly. This isn't an over-night project, because it's not easy. If it were easy, there would be too many champions.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby blackthorn » Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:25 pm

Thankyou HH.

This thread has been so illuminating. I am sure that things are a little different for most skiers learning PMTS having come from the old straight ski era, and those coming from the shaped ski era. For the top skiers from both eras the fundamental movements are still very similar. For me tightening the turn radius and increasing ski angle, and counter, throughout the turn comes naturally akin in some ways to the old "check". We certainly would not have got anywhere with "park and ride"!

I only wish I had been taught the fundamentals better through the years. ?PMTS applies as much to straight skis, but I suspect that specific drills would have been different as they would have to have worked with the equipment of the day, including leather lace up boots. I guess also that understanding of biomechanics, and modern coaching techniques, have also come a long way.

I wonder if the inventors of the shaped ski really understood exactly what it was that they were doing - but great that they did so.

It is such a pity that so much of the mainstream remains so out of touch.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby DougD » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:18 am

h.harb wrote:Whether edge changes are done in the air or on the snow isn't contrary to anything PMTS. In fact, the float in PMTS is precisely this.

<snip>

Since straight skis don't easily create High C carving, the upper 3rd of the arc is not created. Shaped skis gave us, HighC carving without a huge rebound needed to get up-side-down.

Thanks, Harald, for these insights. The first was in the back of my mind while thinking about Greber's skiing but didn't quite reach the keyboard. The second is clear now that you've explained it. Straight skis forced all but elite skiers to push the tails around. The balance, timing and strength needed to get that rebound and change edges during the float was (and remains) beyond the abilities of all but the best skiers.

At first you have to learn the balance, this requires many runs doing a round arc with a "high C' release, very slowly.

Yes, yes... a thousand times. I'm still very much in the middle of this phase. The best day of skiing I've had was 4-5 hours of this, alternating runs of OFRs and TFRs, then mixing them randomly, all at glacially slow speed on a very easy, groomed green.

The improvement in balancing and tipping control was profound. The two free ski runs I took at day's end, one on a steepish ice course, the other in bumps, were amazing. The movements I'd drilled gave me such complete control it felt like skiing in slow motion.

But they aren't automatic yet. In a tough, unexpected spot I sometimes still revert to old movements. 30 years of habits don't go away easily. So every ski day begins (and sometimes ends) with slow speed drills. If those don't go well, free skiing will only make it worse.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby Max_501 » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:14 am

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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby geezer skier » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:53 am

Fat powder skis? I don't need any fat powder skis! :D :D :D
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby blackthorn » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:10 am

It was only possible to ski powder well with straight skinny skis using proper technique. I could do it as long as the snow was not too heavy, nor steep, using the old push up and twist technique - really hard on the knees. Of course in those days I didn't know what proper technique was and no-one had been able to tell me - you either had worked it out for yourself or not.
Thanks Max for the great clips - here is one more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcs393efYmk

In deep snow there was the possibility for these skinny skis to engage in the high C part of the turn.
Even now in powder, I am happy remaining, for the most part, a "bottom dweller".
If only we had had a version of PMTS back then.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby DougD » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:25 am

blackthorn wrote:It was only possible to ski powder well with straight skinny skis using proper technique. I could do it as long as the snow was not too heavy, nor steep, using the old push up and twist technique - really hard on the knees. Of course in those days I didn't know what proper technique was and no-one had been able to tell me - you either had worked it out for yourself or not.

< snip >

In deep snow there was the possibility for these skinny skis to engage in the high C part of the turn.
Even now in powder, I am happy remaining, for the most part, a "bottom dweller".
If only we had had a version of PMTS back then.

Before Harald's first 'Snow Country' articles in the mid-90s, LIto's 1985-86 articles and book offered non-TTS methods for recreational skiers. For powder skiing, Lito advised:
    1. keeping a close, parallel stance at all times by pulling the feet together (adduction, also used in PMTS)
    2. pulling the knees and skis up sharply to begin the new turn (ie, flexing to release - as in PMTS)
    3. using the float to get the CoM inside for the new turn by "Commitment", aka "falling headfirst downhill" (definitely NOT PMTS)
    4. extending the legs laterally throughout the turn, which caused the skis to arc as pressure built up beneath them (active extension, also not PMTS)
Since Tipping, CA and CB were not in Lito's vocabulary at the time, steps 3 and 4 relied on active, forceful use of large muscle groups in the thighs and upper body. The method was thus less controllable and less nuanced than PMTS. But at least the large muscle movements did not fight gravity. There was no pushing up to release. Nor was there much if any twisting of the skis. This method was less tiring than TTS push-and-twist and put less strain on the knees.

I remember skiing this way (or trying to) on the rare days we Eastern skiers got enough powder. It felt COMPLETELY different from TTS skiing. While a long way short of PMTS, there was some sense that the skis were being used to arc and work as designed. The skis were slicing forward and arcing more than pushing and pivoting. Despite being no kind of athlete, I was able to ski powder from first chair to last when most of my buddies had given up with aching quads.

That said, without Tipping, CA and CB there was no controlling or decreasing the turn radius. Ski edge angles depended on upper body movements (leaning) and lateral leg extension, which do not provide fine tuning of a turn. Once in the turn, you were committed to whatever angles you started with. Your skis could get a little beyond terminal velocity at times. :shock:
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby h.harb » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:23 pm

That is a pretty good evaluation of Lito's approach before he learned about PMTS. I introduced it too him and he immediately saw the benefits. Lito's best asset was he had an open mind and was willing to use what worked best. He wasn't brain washed like most of the Epic, PSIA types. I saw Lito's skiing improve after taking him out and working on his skiing. He was fascinated by PMTS.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby noobSkier » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:12 pm



I've watched this video so many times... amazing stuff. Is it possible to ski bottomless pow like that with skinny parabolics like the SS kers?
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby h.harb » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:08 am

I deleted your posts because the Lito's videos are out of date and don't add anything to the PMTS skiing discussion that has not already been said except more history. There are plenty of places where people can watch the Lito videos if they are so inclined. Liro is a friend and in his time contributed, beyond what PSIA could offer; however, PMTS is superior in ever-way and has evolved skiing and teaching well beyond those times. And the skiing in the videos isn't what we aspire to, it's real old and mixed with incorrect movements.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby DougD » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:36 am

noobSkier wrote:


I've watched this video so many times... amazing stuff. Is it possible to ski bottomless pow like that with skinny parabolics like the SS kers?

Sure. It's easier on a SS Kers than on the skis Greber's using. The SS Kers is softer flexing and its shovel and tail are wider, so it floats more and flexes into an arc easier.

If you haven't skied old, stiff straight skis in deep powder, you won't appreciate how easily they can nosedive or scissor - followed by a spectacular windmilling tumble (ask me how I know). Skiing like Greber on those skis requires extraordinary control of movements and timing. The SS Kers would make it easier (though not easy!)

HH and other coaches ski the SS Kers in powder. Heck, even I ski them in powder (not quite as adeptly, lol).
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