Straight ski experiment

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Straight ski experiment

Postby noobSkier » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:50 pm

I've always been interested in old-school skiing so when I found a pair of mint condition Rossignol straight skis in my dads basement, I knew I had to try them out! I wanted to see how much of PMTS could be applied to the old ski design. I was pretty surprised with the results! This clip was my third run ever on straight skis.

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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby oggy » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:31 pm

Love the music, but your outfit needs some work. Nice turns! I'm itching to try some old skis now :)

Probably my favorite straight skis vid:

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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby h.harb » Thu Feb 01, 2018 7:08 pm

Gerber is a very impressive skier!
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby blackthorn » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:26 pm

Being "of a certain age" ( 67y ) this brings back memories, including the onepiece, because, after all "the older I get, the better I was". In fact at times I may have been a bit like this, ( ???!! - no not really ) but self taught, and plateaued. Only since discovering PMTS has my skiing developed along with my understanding of what it is I should be trying to achieve. Ravages of time/infirmity of course present an ongoing challenge. Applying PMTS MA to this clip is very instructive.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby Max_501 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:39 am

noobSkier wrote:I've always been interested in old-school skiing so when I found a pair of mint condition Rossignol straight skis in my dads basement, I knew I had to try them out! I wanted to see how much of PMTS could be applied to the old ski design. I was pretty surprised with the results! This clip was my third run ever on straight skis.


While this video shows many of the Essentials it is instructive to analyze the movement(s) used for creating the tight turn. Take a close look at the action of the tails as they move quickly across the fall line into the bottom of the arc. What movement(s) is(are) used to make that happen?
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:57 am



In my mind Bernd Greber is the best free skier and he made the transition from straight skis to shaped without a hitch. Yes, better than Richie Berger. The only other skier I know who skied as well was Luggi Schaller. Schaller was Austrian demo team and a huge skiing influence in Japan before Richie Berger. I skied many times with Schaller in Austria. He was a beautiful skier and a great kids development coach.

As far as skiing on straight skis and reverting back to them, you have to be careful not to be fooled into thinking you are using PMTS movements. PMTS skiing even on straight skis, doesn't show push-off or extension from rebound. Also the tails of the skis don't wind-shield wiper behind you. With all PMTS skiing, the skis are tipped to an angle before changing direction, just as on shaped skis.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby noobSkier » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:24 am

I just found it interesting that I could make the transition without falling on my face :lol: But yea, no doubt theres some tail-pushing going on. Tried as I might to tip the skis into every turn, I just found them pivoting away so the best I could do was try to stay balanced over them. Would you need to generate an insane amount of tip pressure on the straight skis to actually initiate every turn with tipping only?
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby blackthorn » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:37 pm

Yes indeed. I continue to work on developing PMTS movements and trying to rid myself of those that I used to use with straight skis.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:04 pm

The main thing that makes carving on straight skis work is, strong pull back, and flexing or retracting the legs into a tipping angles, without a direction change. If you push off or extend at all, you will pivot. This fits into the PSIA play book. They justify rotary movements because???? They can't ski without them. They embrace pivoting because they can't release with a retraction flexing movement, they use a push off. They have to push off because they began with rotary movements. It's a viscus cycle!

The PSIA methodology encourages extension, so right from the beginning you are going to end up pivoting, not in a good way.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby DougD » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:22 pm

Max_501 wrote:While this video shows many of the Essentials it is instructive to analyze the movement(s) used for creating the tight turn. Take a close look at the action of the tails as they move quickly across the fall line into the bottom of the arc. What movement(s) is(are) used to make that happen?

Max_501, thanks for this challenge to our MA skills. Here's what I see in his (Greber's) short turn sequences:
    1. Skiing at terminal velocity, no matter how steep the slope or how challenging the conditions;
    2. Therefore, enormous energy stored in the flexed stance ski on every turn;
    3. At the exact moment the skis reach their point of maximum deflection he releases with a super-quick leg retraction (there is no hesitation and this is critical, as any hesitation would dissipate the energy stored in the bent skis);
    4. The rapid leg retraction + the energy released by the un-flexing ski catapults his skis off the snow - this is the RELEASE;
    5. While the skis are briefly airborne, he Tips them toward the new edges and begins to CA and CB - this is the TRANSFER;
    6. The act of mid-air Tipping + CA + CB shifts his skis laterally beneath his CoM so that they're now outside for the next turn ;
    6. At touchdown, his pre-tipped skis are already ENGAGED on the new edges;
    7. The edged stance ski immediately starts bending under the pressures of landing and new turning forces:
    8. He instantly maxes out Tipping, CA and CB... preparing for a return to step 1 and the next turn.

So... we have PMTS-like movements, EXCEPT that some of them (particularly, initial Tipping, CA and CB) occur off-snow. If his skis were on snow, that resistance would make Tipping, CA and CB drop his hips inside - PMTS style. Since his skis are airborne without edgehold or resistance, Tipping, CA and CB move his (lower mass) feet/skis outward instead of moving his (higher mass) CoM inward. The biggest difference between these short turns and a PMTS short turn is this lateral displacement of the skis, vs. the lateral displacement of the CoM that occurs in an on-snow transition.

Note: this is similar to what the Egans/Deslauriers called the "Airplane Turn".

Input from your better-trained eyes is welcome... as always!
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby h.harb » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:49 pm

Whether edge changes are done in the air or on the snow isn't contrary to anything PMTS. In fact, the float in PMTS is precisely this. As long as the retraction leads to tipping off the big toe into the little toe edge tipping. The results of this retraction and tipping movement develops new angles and the upper body prepares for the edges coming down to contact the snow. Bernd Greber shows this perfectly, using straight skis with PMTS movements. Since straight skis don't easily create High C carving, the upper 3rd of the arc is not created. Shaped skis gave us, HighC carving without a huge rebound needed to get up-side-down.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby Max_501 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:56 pm

noobSkier wrote:I just found it interesting that I could make the transition without falling on my face :lol: But yea, no doubt theres some tail-pushing going on. Tried as I might to tip the skis into every turn, I just found them pivoting away so the best I could do was try to stay balanced over them.


Increasing the radius of the ski often highlights deficiencies in our movement patterns, just as decreasing speed does. Take a look at your MA video to see what is similar.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby B.Mulligan » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:48 am

I loved those Bernd Greber videos.
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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby Max_501 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:01 am

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Re: Straight ski experiment

Postby noobSkier » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:41 am

Max_501 wrote:Increasing the radius of the ski often highlights deficiencies in our movement patterns, just as decreasing speed does. Take a look at your MA video to see what is similar.


It looks like I'm dumping the hip alot in the straight ski clip. I wasn't getting any edge hold from the ski by tipping; probably due to insufficient pullback, like Harald alluded to. Seems like I was compensating the ineffective tipping by dumping my COM to this inside. Maybe I'm doing this to some extent on parabolics as well?

Interestingly, after getting back on my parabolics, I felt like I "broke" my skiing for a few runs. Do you think it would be useful to put on the straight skis a couple times a week?
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