For the record ...

PMTS Forum

For the record ...

Postby ToddW » Thu May 04, 2017 8:59 am

As some of you know, the Epic Ski forum is being decommissioned and its content will mostly evaporate into the ether days from now.

In my opinion, the post below was the finest in all of Epic's 18 years. I'm quoting it here so that it will not be lost. (It was the tenth post in a thread on carving ice. The thread was started by a Canadian instructor who had taken a clinic to learn to ski on ice and took away tips like ski fast enough, use a wide stance, press on the outside ski, etc. This post is a response to that instructor's claims and long list of tips.)

edit: This was originally posted on Epic by geoffda

In the ski instruction circles that I inhabit, there is an ongoing debate about whether ice is the most challenging surface to ski. I tend to believe that steep ice is the most challenging because it allows no room for error; your movements must be perfect. Another instructor thinks deep powder is harder because of the additional fore-aft balancing challenges which that surface introduces. He has an equally valid argument. The point of all this is that there are two parallel universes happening in ski instruction it seems.



In the one where the OP took a lesson, you apparently learn how to ski ice and you learn how to ski powder, bumps, crud, etc. In my world, which is more affilliated with elite race coaching, you simply learn how to ski, and when your technique has developed sufficiently, skiing ice (or anything else) simply works. Around 7 years ago, I can remember being hopeless on ice and posting some questions on Epic. I got some similar advice, but it didn't really help. Then I began learning how to ski all over again, and every season I got better on ice to the point where it became no different than any other surface. Fundamentally, there is no change to my technique when skiing ice. The only thing I change is that I make certain I establish balance on the outside ski early. As BTS and LF pointed out, this can be done be transferring balance to the little-toe-edge of the inside foot prior to releasing the turn. That's it.



If you have the right technique, you can ski ice on pretty much any equipment. Sharp edges definitely help, but not as much as you might think. What matters more is whether your ski has enough torsional stiffness to allow the edges to bite and whether it is narrow-waisted enough (under 70mm underfoot) to easily tip up on edge. Avoid rockered skis on ice; I've yet to see a full rockered ski that can actually carve on hard snow.



A wide stance is not helpful on ice (or anywhere else for that matter). It prevents effective tipping, disrupts the movements that create fore-aft and dynamic lateral balance and interferes with releasing. With most skiers narrower is better. The only exception is for skiers that are squeezing their thighs together to form a platform. Those skiers must ski with a wide enough (fist width) stance so that they can learn to develop independent foot tipping.



You do not need a wider stance to facilitate recoveries on ice. If you are balanced properly over your outside ski, you should never need to catch yourself. When you are in balance, if the ski breaks loose, you will simply displace laterally with the ski while remaining in balance. This is very common when skiing fresh snow over ice. You will be skiing along bending the ski in the soft snow and you'll hit the ice and scoot sideways. You get down to the bottom of the run and you say something to your friends like, "Man, there were a lot of slick spots up there; I was sliding all over the place" and they give you blank looks because they could not even see it and thought you'd managed to avoid all of the icy patches.



In the world of elite skiing, the idea of a steering angle is nonsense. The first movement is always to edge. We don't practice twisting our skis, ever. If we are leaving pencil-tracks on ice and getting very strong release forces which lift the skis off the snow, there may be times when there is some redirection of the skis (either by accident or by design), but this is never caused by an active twisting of the feet. Rather, it is a result of the tipping movements and it is those movements that are used to control the redirection. Trying to twist flat skis at speed is a recipe for catching your edges and crashing spectacularly. If you want to learn how to ski well, practice moving to new edges without *any* direction change. When you can do that while remaining in balance you will be able to ski anything. Magically, you will also be able to redirect as needed even without having practiced it. But you'll also understand my comment about how rarely that is required outside of a race-course.



In general, but especially when skiing on ice, a distinction needs to be drawn between carving and park and ride. True carved turns involve continuously increasing edge angles and require complete balance at all points in the turn. There are several movements that are required to produce this and the best skiers are in constant motion throughout the turn. Nothing stops until the turn releases. Park and ride, on the other hand, is very static. It involves reaching an angle in the turn (and this could be fairly high) and then simply riding edges waiting for the turn to stop. Speed control is not possible with park and ride except by over finishing turns back up the hill. Park and ride skiing is dangerous and even more so on ice.



When you use carving movements, there is no need to do what most people think of as carving, which is to leave pencil tracks. You can create brushed carved turns (which involve uniform lateral displacement). These work very well on ice and can produce turns with whatever level of speed control you desire. Brushed carved turns are a much better (and safer) alternative to skiing ice than park and ride.



Actively extending into the turn and seeking pressure on the ski so that you can stand against it produces park and ride skiing. Unforutnately, it feels really good so it is easy to get sucked into the trap. One of my friends calls it "Masters Racer Disease," which is unfortunately very apt. If you are standing on your ski, it isn't tipping. As counterintuitive as it may sound, elite skiers manage pressure by continuing to give into it slightly so that they can keep increasing the edge angles of their skis. There is is no point in the turn where they feel like they are standing or pushing against the soles of their feet. The outside leg will be long at the apex of the turn, but it got that way because as the center of mass moved into the turn, it pulled it long. The icing on the cake is the counteracting movement which produced the final bit of extension. If you try to get long by pushing on ice, you'll very likely break your ski loose.



Extending into the turn is to be avoided because it disrupts balance. Contrary to Rick's thread on transitions, elite skiers strive to eliminate any moment of imbalance in transition. If you lose balance in transition, bad things happen. At a minimum, you are a passenger while you are falling into the turn. You don't regain control until there is sufficient pressure against your ski to balance against. Often, you are left with insufficient time to do anything other than park on the edge and ride the turn to completion. Some very athletic skiers are skilled enough that they can overcome being out of balance and still produce good skiiing. OTOH, those skiers would be even better if they didn't allow themselves to get out of balance in the first place. More to the point, the vast majority of us have no hope of successfully skiing that way, so why try?



As an idea of the level of balance I'm talking about, it is possible to stand in a stationary postion with skis parallel to the fall line on a green slope, change to new edges without touching poles to the snow for balance, and actually carve a complete turn. Try it. Without having any forces to balance against, it can only be done if you own a very specific set of movements.and understand how to put them together It is a great test of skiing ability.



Angulation, or counter-balance is very important, but it is only one of the required movements. Tipping, flexion (and *passive* extension), counter-balance, counteracting, fore-aft movements of the feet, and proper pole use are all required. If you are lacking in any one of these, skiing ice with anything other than park and ride will be difficult.



When carving ice, it is important to finish the turn with the tail of the ski carving. Doing that is mostly about finishing the turn with strong counteracting. Balance is moving away from forward at the end of the turn, but it doesn't go to the heel and you don't really have to do anything to make this happen if the ski is slicing. If you are over the heel, you are too far back and out of balance fore-aft-wise. Back of the arch is about as far aft as you would normally want to go. If you finish the turn strongly counteracted (and hold the counteraction while changing edges), the tail of the ski will grip.



The idea of resisting with the outside leg is a dangerous one. You don't want to crumple completely, but you do have to continue to give in so that you can keep tipping. This sensation is very different from what most people do, which is stomp on the ski. The outside leg most definitely should not stay long throughout the turn. It will reach maximum length at the apex and then begin to shorten as flexing and tipping continue. If you don't keep flexing and tipping, you are parking and riding.



The over the shoulder look is fine if you are traversing, but if you are actually skiing, doing that involves rotation that will undo any of the good things you might be doing with your skiing. Very likely, it will result in de-edging of your ski which will reduce or eliminate your grip. In ordinary skiing, there just should be no need to do this. Speed control comes from continous tipping which aggressively tightens the radius, not from trying to carve excessively wide turns back up the hill. If you are on a slalom radius ski, carve slalom turns. If you are on a GS radius ski, carve GS turns. Nothing wider is necessary.



Like I said, I feel like there are parallel universes of ski instruction going on. I read about _Metaphor's experience and my first thought was, "Are we even talking about the same sport?" Hopefully this post illustrates some of the differences in philosophy between run of the mill ski instruction's understanding of skiing and how elite skiers approach skiing. I think many of the people on this site are (like I was) actually in search of developing elite skiing skills. Unfortunately, if you are one of those people, I wouldn't say that you are the target audience for most ski instruction. Buyer beware.
Last edited by ToddW on Fri May 05, 2017 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby marsound » Thu May 04, 2017 12:22 pm

Wow... Excellent post! ToddW, thanks for saving this.

Parallel universes indeed...
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Re: For the record ...

Postby Vailsteve » Thu May 04, 2017 4:29 pm

EXCELLENT post is right!!! One for the permanent record here. Tnx Todd for posting it.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby tarnaby » Thu May 04, 2017 4:47 pm

Well done Todd.

" flexion (and *passive* extension)" is so much better than "flexion and extension".
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Re: For the record ...

Postby NoCleverName » Fri May 05, 2017 6:52 am

... how was it received on Epic ? They ban the poster for life? :D

But this is a great summary that pretty much slaps down the majority of the stuff you (used to) see over there.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby h.harb » Fri May 05, 2017 10:31 am

Are you sure i didn't write that? I am a Canadian after all. This person has to have had contact with either PMTS literature, our clinics, or this forum. No CSIA instructor would have come up with this by himself.

Thanks Todd, and as I say to many these days and Max501 constantly tells new people here, "read, Expert Skier 1, first". After watching and studying World Cup skiing forever, and especially since I wrote Expert Skier 1, it seems logical to me, that the world cup racers read my book. Since my book was published technique has come around, at least on the world cup, toward PMTS skiing. If you watch and study WC skiing, by the best 5 slalom skiers, it demonstrates one thing: Expert Skier !, is more relevant today than at any other time in skiing history. And this is a book of ski technique that has been around for 20 years. Still modern, still totally relevant and the short cut to good skiing.

Everything PSIA and Epic criticized about PMTS, and Epic supported and demanded, now is exposed as small minded thinking and demonstrates their total misconception of anything to do with good skiing. Epic forum and PSIA have been wrong on every count for over the last 20 years. Examples from Epic statements: No one on the world cup lifts a ski. Everyone extends. Pivoting is world cup technique. A wide stance is how world cup skiers ski. No one uses a narrow stance, it's not a way to balance. Fundamentally everything Epic and PSIA stands for is wrong and was wrong from the very beginning.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby DougD » Fri May 05, 2017 11:40 am

Todd, thanks for preserving this astonishing post. A wealth of skiing technique knowledge, whoever wrote it.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby ToddW » Fri May 05, 2017 1:15 pm

DougD,

The author of that post is a PMTS forum member and a very serious student of PMTS. Because he is also a practicing ski coach, I've asked for his permission before identifying him with a post he made on a different forum.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby Ken » Fri May 05, 2017 2:20 pm

If you are balanced properly over your outside ski, you should never need to catch yourself. When you are in balance, if the ski breaks loose, you will simply displace laterally with the ski while remaining in balance.

The difference between balancing over the skis that we work to do vs. bracing against the skis that too many actually do. Balancing over the skis lets the skier s̶l̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶a̶l̶o̶n̶g̶ displace laterally over the skis just as described. Bracing against the skis lets the skis slide out from under the skier and dump him on his butt.

The last management of Epic was not anti-PMTS like previous ownership, closely tied to PSIA, was. I don't know the reason for Epic's death...they claim it was loss of the platform. It could have been money. Some think it was pressure from Vail Resorts who own the Epic Pass name.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby h.harb » Sat May 06, 2017 10:45 am

Bracing, pushing or stiffening of the outside leg doesn't necessarily cause a skid, it can, but it's not the most frequent result. It causes mostly, hip dumping , park and ride, Cg out of balance. Hip twisting, from a squared up finish, to redirect the skis causes skidding, often associated with a straight braced outside leg as a consequence.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby noobSkier » Sat May 06, 2017 11:25 am

I'm relatively new to the sport, so I had never heard of Epic until this thread. I went over and read up some PMTS threads just for fun. What I found there can only be described as a rejection of reality. I want to share my thoughts on this because I see it everyday on the hill.

Recreational skiing is unlike almost any other sport in the sense that there's no objective performance criteria that urges skiers to improve their level of skill. Golfers have strokes, tennis players keep score, cyclists and runners track time. A skier who can ski without falling would consider themselves proficient in the sport. A skier who can ski virtually any terrain without falling, would consider themselves an expert.

Obviously there are more factors at play other than the likelihood of falling down the slope; control, balance, efficiency, consistency, aesthetics etc. In skiing, all of these factors are totally subjective and everyone has their own understanding of what a high standard is. The only way to bring those criteria into an objective light is with video analysis. How many skiers actually ever get to see video of themselves? I'd wager less than 1%. If a skier can't gauge their own level of skill, how can they be expected to appreciate (and strive towards) the skiing of masters like HH, Reilly and Berger?

When I watch video of great skiers, I'm in awe because I understand how much better they are than I am. I've shown clips of great skiing to people who ski and the usual reaction is this: "Good skier but that's old-school feet close together". They can't even appreciate a great skier because they have no idea how ugly their own skiing is. True skill gets drowned out when everyone thinks they are a hot-shot (which I think humans are naturally inclined to do unless presented with evidence to the contrary; which in the case of skiing almost never happens).

Im not a great skier, but through years of practicing and coaching another highly technical sport at a pretty high level, I've developped an eye for movement efficiency. Movement efficiency is universal and present at the highest levels of any sport. Great skiing, like a perfect swing or a flawless serve is beautiful to watch...but unless you have an eye for movement efficiency it might all look the same to you (especially in a sport like skiing which has so many subtleties). CSIA/PSIA rotary wide-stance skiing is ugly, and it's ugly because there's no movement efficiency. Unfortunately someone who can't see that might say that "there's more than one way to skin a cat".
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Re: For the record ...

Postby h.harb » Sat May 06, 2017 6:09 pm

noobskier, Well said, we all agree with every statement you posted. To come up with this reality by yourself is rather extraordinary! Welcome to PMTS, the red pill is reality. The blue pill is psychobabble.

For those not sure what it means. Psychobabble: writing or talk using jargon from psychiatry or psychotherapy without particular accuracy or relevance.

As an aside to your post, PMTS measures performance based on movements, identifies them, and they are describable. You are either doing them making them happen or you are not. Not bullshit no esoteric description just performance. That's why we can obviously see and describe why TTS, PSIA and Epic are frauds and don't come close to creating movements that the best skiers use.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby DougD » Sun May 07, 2017 9:52 am

noobSkier wrote:Recreational skiing is unlike almost any other sport in the sense that there's no objective performance criteria that urges skiers to improve their level of skill. Golfers have strokes, tennis players keep score, cyclists and runners track time.


h.harb wrote:... PMTS measures performance based on movements, identifies them, and they are describable. You are either doing them making them happen or you are not. Not bullshit no esoteric description just performance. That's why we can obviously see and describe why TTS, PSIA and Epic are frauds and don't come close to creating movements that the best skiers use

More than one PSIA instructor (including L3's and Trainers) have said in my hearing, "I may not be able to define good skiing, but I know it when I see it."

This is just hubris. If you can't define good skiing:
1. How can you pretend to teach it?
2. How can you reliably distinguish good skiing from bad?

Statements like this demonstrated to me, nearly 35 years ago, that mainstream ski instruction was intellectually bankrupt.

OTOH, PMTS provides the intellectual underpinnnings for valid, demonstrable performance improvement, objectively measured by effective movements and winning times on the toughest race courses.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby Obrules15 » Sun May 07, 2017 6:33 pm

DougD wrote:
noobSkier wrote:Recreational skiing is unlike almost any other sport in the sense that there's no objective performance criteria that urges skiers to improve their level of skill. Golfers have strokes, tennis players keep score, cyclists and runners track time.


h.harb wrote:... PMTS measures performance based on movements, identifies them, and they are describable. You are either doing them making them happen or you are not. Not bullshit no esoteric description just performance. That's why we can obviously see and describe why TTS, PSIA and Epic are frauds and don't come close to creating movements that the best skiers use

More than one PSIA instructor (including L3's and Trainers) have said in my hearing, "I may not be able to define good skiing, but I know it when I see it."

This is just hubris. If you can't define good skiing:
1. How can you pretend to teach it?
2. How can you reliably distinguish good skiing from bad?

Statements like this demonstrated to me, nearly 35 years ago, that mainstream ski instruction was intellectually bankrupt.

OTOH, PMTS provides the intellectual underpinnnings for valid, demonstrable performance improvement, objectively measured by effective movements and winning times on the toughest race courses.


All of the above statements really encompass my main complaint about TTS. I hear them when they say that the majority of people ski once a year and don't really take lessons to learn how to ski, instead simply seeking to learn how not to die. My problem is (even if you buy their argument) that if a skier walks up to a ski school desk they cannot opt for the lesson where they actually learn to ski because the TTS instructors can't teach that. The decision to teach to the level of perceived interest (which could be debated as to its appropriateness) doesn't obviate the responsibility to know what good skiing is.

Pop musicians and Boy Bands don't pretend to be Beethoven, why does TTS pretend it's teaching good skiing? If they advertised themselves as the pop music version of skiing I'd be considerably less pissy, because I would have had a choice instead of wasting years, money, energy, and body parts learning bad technique.

I spent 13 years (spanning 38 years) taking lots of TTS lessons, a few of those years included significant investments in private lessons and TTS camps. In the past year after my 1st PMTS camp (mostly on my own) I have made more progress in improving my skiing than in all the years of TTS skiing combined. I was always clear I was willing to do the work and put in the time but unfortunately the phrase "crap in, crap out" applies, and not one of the TTS instructors made much sense when asked to explain what was going on.
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Re: For the record ...

Postby skifastDDS » Tue May 09, 2017 8:30 am

Great post, Geoff. Thanks for rescuing it from epic Todd. It's superbly written and right on.
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