What are instructors that can't teach effective movements?

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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby EV_Steve » Fri May 05, 2017 9:58 am

I can understand why a ski school would choose TTS over PMTS as their teaching method, but I don’t understand why ski race coaches don’t teach PMTS movements. For more than 20 years HH has broken down the movements used by the best world cup skiers in the world in his books, blogs, and videos. It’s all there. Why don’t they use it?
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby h.harb » Fri May 05, 2017 10:06 am

Two quotes i like. However, just to be clear, PMTS is an approved teaching progression by thousands of skier world wide. I don't base approval for PMTS, on or by organizations that don't teach skiing.


TOTALLY agree that it is just a shame that PMTS is not the approved teaching progressio. It is so, so much better.



I've given a bunch of "intro to pmts" lessons to friends who couldn't wait to get to the hill again. People may not be motivated because no one has shown them that there is a path.


You can only be motivated by something that you think is a possibility, up to the time PMTS was introduced, that didn't exist.
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby CO_Steve » Fri May 05, 2017 1:16 pm

h.harb wrote:
You can only be motivated by something that you think is a possibility, up to the time PMTS was introduced, that didn't exist.


I know we were talking about students here but could this apply to TTS instructors as well?
How can you be motivated to teach a system that doesn't generate good results?
I know when I'm teaching someone and they get that look of "wow this really works" it's a huge motivator.
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby Ken » Fri May 05, 2017 2:06 pm

most PSIA instructors have never heard of inside foot management,

Many have, but they think it is inside foot steering...lift the inside foot and twist it in the direction you want to go. Very limiting way to ski.
I can understand why a ski school would choose TTS over PMTS

TTS gets almost anybody, on almost any equipment, up on the hill having some fun, buying overpriced hamburgers, and maybe coming back to spend more money. Boots that fit right?...Skis well suited to the skier and the snow?...optional. Totally limiting. A few skiers with enough innate athleticism can ski out of the restraints of the system. Too many drop out due to frustration from never getting to be a better skier.
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby h.harb » Sat May 06, 2017 10:50 am

TTS, gets 1.5 skiers, on a good day, out of 10, to try skiing again, regardless of whether they get on the hill or not.
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby Icanski » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:26 pm

As the seasons starts up, ( I just got my first Ski Canada issue this week in the mail along with the gear guide), I look at the many pictures of skiers in the magazines: in the ads, in the articles, and even in the technique articles. I'm not picking on Ski Canada, I see it in all the magazines. Lots of A-frames, knocked knees, super wide stances, one ski drifting way out and the weight on the inside ski in powder...people who have almost not CB or CA, etc. And these are held up as the perfect skiers.
Watching some recent ski movies of young skiers who are heavily sponsored and off to Japan, or some exotic location with choppers and amazing mountains, and off they go, schushing down, bouncing away. In the knee to hip deep powder their skis appear to be each moving quite independently, far apart. They are dropping off cliffs, spinning and flipping impressively off anything that gives them air. I couldn't do that... But when I see them, I get the sense that they are just on the edge of control. And sometimes I worry it will catch up to them.
Form follows function was a mantra from the ski school recently up here. But the difference between the function and the PMTS functions result in totally different forms.
I'm so glad there are PMTS videos out on you tube so people can find it and see something different. Beautiful functions leading to beautiful efficient form.
I've been trying to get us into magazines....but it's tough. But the internet is wide open. So let's spread the word. ;-)
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby Icanski » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:01 pm

CO_Steve wrote: "I know we were talking about students here but could this apply to TTS instructors as well?
How can you be motivated to teach a system that doesn't generate good results? "

But that's just it....they are convinced they are getting 'good results'. They haven't seen any other way, and their system keeps telling them that, too.
The slogan of the CSIA is "Leaders in ski teaching"... Every year we get more indoctrination on how they are changing ski instruction. They are basically teaching the same TTS, but changing the way they say things with new jargon and terms, new tactics for the 'toolbox' and slight changes to technique: last year it was skiing more upright, instead of in the hunched over 'chimp' posture. What gets me is that often they talk about what they were emphasizing a few years ago as if it were some insane idea somebody else was doing, and not their doctrine. When asked about the unweighting they laughed and said, "Ha, nobodyskis like that anymore!"
When I've had someone ask me to show them some Pmts techniques they'll say, that's kind of what we're doing only we call it something else; or they just don't get it and dismiss it: that works fine if you're a racer...." etc.
But they still teach the idea of "pivoting" and "steering" and come up with new manuals with increasingly complex drawing showing ski learning: conceptualization, integration, initialization....and so forth. But the wedge is still where it all starts. They can't see starting any other way.

I think another aspect, too, which could be a whole different thread, is that there's a huge business of accreditation. The amount of time and money it takes to get through the different levels, particularly the jump from level three to level four, is incredible. People spend thousands of dollars to get their level four and have to take it usually two or three times. It's good to have high, tough standards. But it says something when the system which is training and teaching the instructors is not producing instructors right through. It makes it exceedingly difficult to get through, which indicates there's something missing in the training instructors get.
But that's for some other thread. They aren't aware there are other ways, and they don't hear about them.
Note that the ski press has rarely ever covered anything about PMTS....the elephant in the room has a lot of power in that realm.
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby pzotalis » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:41 pm

85% of first time skiers in this country never come back for a 2nd visit. PSIA is the "standard" ski teaching system in the industry. Too a very large degree, they are to blame with that stat. To me, they are not the standard. They are just a vendor that sells a shitty product that doesn't work. The problem is, every ski area in the United States (minus 1 :D ) is convinced they are the only vendor. Or, think about it this way. What other profressions can you get away with a 85% failure rate? Just imagine if pilots or doctors failed 85% of the time! Thanks to PMTS, there is another "vendor". Good news is, this one works. We can prove it.
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby ToddW » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:45 pm

pzotalis wrote:What other professions can you get away with a 85% failure rate?


Fortune teller. Horoscope writer. Astrologist. Psychic detective. AASI snowboard instructor.

Peter,

It's good to see you posting again. Gotta love that "minus one." If other ski area GMs could ski and coach like Welch Village's GM, then the skiing industry would be a giant cash machine fueled by happy customers.

Todd
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby pzotalis » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:38 am

Hey Todd! Thanks for the compliment. Our new dilemma (Thanks to HSS) is a new demand from other ski areas that want us to train their staff. HH and Diana have been down this road before. We are trying balance helping others with also making sure we can serve our guests. I don't have enough time to train our own instructors & coaches, let alone train others. However, it's a good problem to have and we are figuring it out. Currently, there is ski resort out east and one in Michigan that keeps asking us for help. It's fun and exciting to be asked, but I would rather ski with guys like you in Austria!
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby Vailsteve » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:59 am

pzotalis wrote: Currently, there is ski resort out east and one in Michigan that keeps asking us for help. It's fun and exciting to be asked, but I would rather ski with guys like you in Austria!


Ummm, could that one resort in Michigan be called Brighton? A Vail Resort mountain? No way!!

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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby h.harb » Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:56 am

If you go to the Social Chat forum, the same dilemma is obvious with the top instructors in each country. Even Austrian Demo Team members are learning. However it's not from their organization it's from PMTS. They can't figure out why they can't ski like the best skiers. They are stuck within their own systems. Even the Austrians. Since Reilly has really set a new standard, the other skiers on Demo Teams notice they can't ski as well, and the difference is obvious. Before Reilly started learning PMTS, about 3 years ago, the differences were not so obvious, so the question didn't come up. Now they all want to know what Reilly is doing.
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby blackthorn » Tue Oct 31, 2017 2:56 pm

HH speaks the truth, but consider Luke 4:24
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby h.harb » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:21 pm

"Too much familiarity breeds contempt."
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Re: What are instructors that can't teach effective movement

Postby skijim13 » Thu Nov 02, 2017 8:38 am

I bet many upper level PMTS students could go to a level III PSIA skiing exam and pass it, while the same would not be true for Level III skiers passing PMTS certification. Last spring Lorie and I were at the PSIA spring rally skiing with a general group to keep our certification. One of the tasks was to make 12 short round turns, Lorie and I ended up in almost the same place on the slope, the others were much further up the hill because they were doing hockey stop type turns with snow going down the fall line instead of to the sides of the slope. Both of us got advice to improve our short turn by stabbing the pole into the snow at the end of each turn while unwinding our CA.
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