New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

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New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby h.harb » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:34 pm

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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby Obrules15 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:36 pm

Why is it better for the tip to lead the lift in those examples?
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby sgarrozzo » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:11 am

Obrules15 wrote:Why is it better for the tip to lead the lift in those examples?



Perhaps because at the end of the turn before entering the next, slalom skiers are on the tail of the ski. So they can not lift the tail, must lifting the tip.....?
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby DougD » Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:40 am

sgarrozzo is correct. The skiers in this blog post are world class/expert level, and are able to use tip lift in specific circumstances without "sitting back" or "getting in the back seat" when the skis are loaded. Notice that this occurs at the point when the skis are light.

When a a typical skier lifts their tips, it can occur at any point in the turn, which shows they're in the back seat and skiing with poor fore/aft balance. Not the case for these skiers.

The WC racers are skiing at speeds & energy levels the rest of us will never attain. In these turns, the feet may slice ahead very slightly near the bottom of the turn. This increases edgehold at the point in the turn where the ski is most heavily loaded. When the skier retracts his legs to release, this causes the tips to lift first.

What these one time pictures don't show is the powerful foot pullback the skier will perform immediately, before the skis engage the snow again. This pullback move brings the feet back beneath the body so quickly that when the skis do reengage the snow, they will do so tips first.

These movements occur so fast that they require a level of strength, flexibility and coordination not available to most skiers. PMTS teaches the foot pullback move to developing sitters because it's an essential movement. Since most skiers don't use this, they're in the back seat all the time, which makes it impossible to release the skis effectively.

Feet slicing ahead and the resulting tip lift movement are for much higher level skiing, which is why they're not mentioned in basic PMTS materials.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:53 am

When it comes to diving into the details of PMTS this forum is a gold mine of information! For example, HH gave us a detailed answer to the "tip lifting" question back in 2007!

h.harb wrote:Max501 asked me about his tip lifting at the end of some arcs, from his video, at or during the release. I see nothing, absolutely nothing wrong with it. I reviewed video and photos of the best skiers in the world, including all mountain and racers. In almost every turn series there is lifting of the old stance ski at the end of arcs. I find myself, in many photos in my 'Anyone can be an Expert Skier' book 2, doing it and also in recent videos I'm shooting for my new Essentials of Skiing DVD.
Last edited by Max_501 on Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby Obrules15 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:06 pm

I really find this forum outstanding. It's very dense and can be confusing if you are trying to understand something that is beyond your current level, but the depth and quality of detail are unparalleled (trust me, I've looked). The best part is to be able to go back over old posts as your understanding develops. There's so much there that you can keep building on your knowledge base one layer at a time, and the level of nuance is crazy. But it definitely takes time, energy, and dedication to make the most of it because PMTS is a deceptively complex topic. I find it easy to trick myself into thinking I know something then stumble over an old post or comment that blows that idea away.

Max501, you're a little scary, but the encyclopedic reference section of your brain that produces these little tidbits is most appreciated. I try very hard to find answers to questions in old posts (and usually succeed since so much is there), but this one escaped me.

So, just to make sure I understand what Harald was saying (and DougD, thank you). It seems as though it isn't that tip lead lift is the primary goal in this level of skiing, but that it is a consequence of the forces, speed, goals, etc.. Furthermore, it's not a problem because the skill of the operator is such that they can manage any potential adverse consequences. However, an intermediate skier who ends up in this position has just screwed themselves, so a ton of emphasis is placed on tip lift lead being bad at the recreational skier level.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby Max_501 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:15 pm

With the exception of a fore/aft balance drill to show the student the effect of lifting the tip and tail off the snow there isn't a "lift the tip" movement in the PMTS material. It is simply an outcome of expert skiing.

geoffda wrote:If you want to become a great skier, just follow the progression. Great skiing is built over time. Don't skip steps and don't move on until you have mastered the step in front of you. Just do what Harald says and don't try to analyze it or understand it. Understanding won't come until much later.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby Obrules15 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:30 pm

Max_501 wrote:With the exception of a fore/aft balance drill to show the student the effect of lifting the tip and tail off the snow there isn't a "lift the tip" movement in the PMTS material. It is simply an outcome of expert skiing.


Yes, I understand, I just didn't know a better way to describe what I was trying to ask about.



geoffda wrote: Just do what Harald says and don't try to analyze it or understand it. Understanding won't come until much later.


Unfortunately, my limbs don't do things my brain doesn't understand first, I am the epitome of an ISTJ personality type. Luckily (unlike TTS, which makes absolutely no sense when you drill down and try and study it), PMTS is very logical and makes perfect sense.
Last edited by Obrules15 on Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby h.harb » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:49 pm

Sorry Doug, you mostly get it right but in this case not. Read the updates to the Blog post. We are teaching this to intermediates and advanced skiers and seeing huge changes in body tension at the release and it also engages the hip for an easier transition to counter acting.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby h.harb » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:54 pm

I think Max memorizes every post I have ever put up! It's funny to look back at the conflicts that the Epic guys used (still have) to have with PMTS. The two that stand out, they said "no one lifts a ski it's not good skiing". Well I guess all the world cup and best free skiers are no ones to them. And also, the narrow stance issues they have. I guess PMTS and the world cup proves them wrong on both counts.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby Obrules15 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:39 pm

h.harb wrote:I think Max memorizes every post I have ever put up! It's funny to look back at the conflicts that the Epic guys used (still have) to have with PMTS. The two that stand out, they said "no one lifts a ski it's not good skiing". Well I guess all the world cup and best free skiers are no ones to them. And also, the narrow stance issues they have. I guess PMTS and the world cup proves them wrong on both counts.


I read a great book that explains a lot about what you see when you look at those guys trying to cope with PMTs or WC skiing. It called "Be Bad First: How To Get Good At Things Fast To Stay Ready For The Future" by Erika Anderson. It basically shows that the human brain will do almost anything to not have to believe it's regressed to beginner status at something, including throwing up learning blocks, blind spots, and blatant denial (it's not just a river in Egypt).
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby h.harb » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:31 pm

It's really hard to get rid of a dinosaur brain mentality. The lucky ones, lucky skiers, are always searching for something better, rather than holding on to what they have, and they will watch as others pass them by..without even knowing.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby Vailsteve » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:16 pm

This is very interesting...having spent a LOT of time focused on the phantom move (lift and tip), as well a VERY focused effort on foot pullback on steeper terrain, i too thought that, generally, tip lift meant being in the back seat.

Kind of "Tail lift "good", tip lift "bad".

I went back to the Harald's blog post and really looked at his feet in the photos. While he does show inside ski tip lifed, his stance ski is on on his little toe edge.

Does this affect one's ability to stay out of the back seat with the tip lifted?

Vailsteve.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby Obrules15 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:42 pm

h.harb wrote:It's really hard to get rid of a dinosaur brain mentality. The lucky ones, lucky skiers, are always searching for something better, rather than holding on to what they have, and they will watch as others pass them by..without even knowing.


That's true of more than just skiing.
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Re: New stuff from PMTS, refined stuff from PMTS!

Postby geoffda » Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:44 pm

Vailsteve wrote:This is very interesting...having spent a LOT of time focused on the phantom move (lift and tip), as well a VERY focused effort on foot pullback on steeper terrain, i too thought that, generally, tip lift meant being in the back seat.

Kind of "Tail lift "good", tip lift "bad".

I went back to the Harald's blog post and really looked at his feet in the photos. While he does show inside ski tip lifed, his stance ski is on on his little toe edge.

Does this affect one's ability to stay out of the back seat with the tip lifted?

Vailsteve.


If you are forward then the only way to lift the tip is by dorsiflexion. If you aready forward and lift without dorsiflexion then the tip will drop. If the tip came up when lifted and you didn't actively make it happen with dorsiflexion then you would be in the back seat (at least if we are talking about intermediate skiing). Foot pullback is still very important. Make sense?
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