I think that I had a minor breakthrough today. I wanted to check it out with the regulars to make sure that it wasn't a setback in disguise. I have been really working hard on tipping the free foot more than I normally do-pulling that foot back, and also really letting the free foot leg flex. What I also tried today was this: after the free foot tip, pull-back and flex- I then EXTENDED that free leg at the very end of the turn. This very nicely shifted my weight to the new stance leg and also moved my COM into the next turn. I really liked the feeling it gave my turns--made them feel very predictable and secure. Has anyone else had a similar experience-am I on the right track?
Patprof[/b]
Feedback Please
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Old Free foot extension at end of turn
by SkierSynergy » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:20 pm
Everything you said sounded fine except the extension of the old free foot leg.
A lot of people do this because it functions to lighten the new free foot so that it can be tipped LTE into the next turn. However, it also produces some very, very bad effects.
This places a big emphasis on the upper body starting into the new turn rather than everything starting from the feet. Everything should start from the old stance/ new free foot.
An emphasis on the upper body creates an up and down between turns which is not needed and hard to control unless more upper body is used -- read bad cycle here.
It also projects the upper body into the new turn ahead of the tipping of the feet which disconnects the CM from pressuring the ski. This is essentially a loss of control (and power) during a large part of the turn and prevents the ability to adjust to conditions and produce balance changes while the CM is disconnected from the snow. I have also noted that people who use the "extension strategy" also tend to have immediate stance leg dominant behaviour rather than a passive stance leg.
You can get the same effect of flowing into the next turn without any of the bad effects by concentrating on flexing the old stance leg first.
Flex to flatten (release) and then continue to flex the old stance (now the new free leg) as you continue to tip LTE.
This foot/leg action will allow the body to flow into the new turn at the transition and continue to draw the body into the turn as it progresses.
Another related topic is the issue of independent leg flexion. I have found that during the bottom half of the turn a lot of people flex the stance leg as they flex the free leg to increase tipping. In general, this just bleeds off power and grip in the stance ski. However, it also produces another problem. If it is most effective to start the turn by flexing the old stance leg ("giving in to the force of the old turn") but the old stance leg is already flexed, where is the new flexion going to come from to "give in" to the new turn?
As the turn progresses, the inside leg flexes AND the stance ski lengthens. This enables the skier to stand on the stance leg in the most structurally sound position at the highest load part of the turn. This also means that at the up comming transition, the stance leg is long and has a lot of room to flex to start the new turn.
Many times, even if people don't think of extending the new stance leg and projecting their body into the new turn, they just keep the same general body length as their body moves from one side of their skis to the other. However, even this produces a big "up-side-down pendulumn" look to their skiing.
Pretend your ploe is a skier. Put your ski pole into the snow at an angle up hill as if it is a skier making a turn. Now tip it down the hill through perpendicular to the slope and continue to tip it into the new turn. This produces a big change in the distance that the pretend skier's shoulders come off the snow during transition. This is the upside down pendulum.
A general rule that I use is that if I want to make the same radius/enegy turn, then my shoulders should stay the same distance off the surface of the snow as it transfers from one side of my skis to the other. This means that my CM has to travel way below (down the slope) where it is at the begining of the release phase. If the body stays the same distance off the snow, the old tance leg really has to suck it up. This is some real committment. But that is the most efficient way to do it.
It may sound a little bit scary, but consider the alternative:
to go back to the idea of extending your old stance leg, just imagine ending a turn on a 40 degree hard slope. Now imagine extending your uphill (old stance leg) and projecting your body out from the slope and down the hill to start the turn. Now that's scary - and a recipe for disaster.
Hope this helps.
A lot of people do this because it functions to lighten the new free foot so that it can be tipped LTE into the next turn. However, it also produces some very, very bad effects.
This places a big emphasis on the upper body starting into the new turn rather than everything starting from the feet. Everything should start from the old stance/ new free foot.
An emphasis on the upper body creates an up and down between turns which is not needed and hard to control unless more upper body is used -- read bad cycle here.
It also projects the upper body into the new turn ahead of the tipping of the feet which disconnects the CM from pressuring the ski. This is essentially a loss of control (and power) during a large part of the turn and prevents the ability to adjust to conditions and produce balance changes while the CM is disconnected from the snow. I have also noted that people who use the "extension strategy" also tend to have immediate stance leg dominant behaviour rather than a passive stance leg.
You can get the same effect of flowing into the next turn without any of the bad effects by concentrating on flexing the old stance leg first.
Flex to flatten (release) and then continue to flex the old stance (now the new free leg) as you continue to tip LTE.
This foot/leg action will allow the body to flow into the new turn at the transition and continue to draw the body into the turn as it progresses.
Another related topic is the issue of independent leg flexion. I have found that during the bottom half of the turn a lot of people flex the stance leg as they flex the free leg to increase tipping. In general, this just bleeds off power and grip in the stance ski. However, it also produces another problem. If it is most effective to start the turn by flexing the old stance leg ("giving in to the force of the old turn") but the old stance leg is already flexed, where is the new flexion going to come from to "give in" to the new turn?
As the turn progresses, the inside leg flexes AND the stance ski lengthens. This enables the skier to stand on the stance leg in the most structurally sound position at the highest load part of the turn. This also means that at the up comming transition, the stance leg is long and has a lot of room to flex to start the new turn.
Many times, even if people don't think of extending the new stance leg and projecting their body into the new turn, they just keep the same general body length as their body moves from one side of their skis to the other. However, even this produces a big "up-side-down pendulumn" look to their skiing.
Pretend your ploe is a skier. Put your ski pole into the snow at an angle up hill as if it is a skier making a turn. Now tip it down the hill through perpendicular to the slope and continue to tip it into the new turn. This produces a big change in the distance that the pretend skier's shoulders come off the snow during transition. This is the upside down pendulum.
A general rule that I use is that if I want to make the same radius/enegy turn, then my shoulders should stay the same distance off the surface of the snow as it transfers from one side of my skis to the other. This means that my CM has to travel way below (down the slope) where it is at the begining of the release phase. If the body stays the same distance off the snow, the old tance leg really has to suck it up. This is some real committment. But that is the most efficient way to do it.
It may sound a little bit scary, but consider the alternative:
to go back to the idea of extending your old stance leg, just imagine ending a turn on a 40 degree hard slope. Now imagine extending your uphill (old stance leg) and projecting your body out from the slope and down the hill to start the turn. Now that's scary - and a recipe for disaster.
Hope this helps.
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by Guest » Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:58 pm
Jay,
Great reply-thanks. You have given me alot to think about. However, in re-reading my post, I might not have been accurate in describing the what and why of my experiment. First of all, since I was already focused on the free foot ("OK tip, pull back, flex, tip more...") it was hard for me to then focus on the stance foot ("flex, deflate, etc.). And when I say EXTEND the free foot at the end of the turn-I didn't mean to suggest up unweighting. It feels more like I'm extending diagonally in the direction of the new turn. It just seemed to me that whether I focus on flexing/relaxing the stance foot or extending (at the end of the turn) the free foot it was a ying/yang sort of thing and the end result was the same. Bottom line-you have much more expertise than I do in this matter and I certainly respect your thoughts on the matter. Damn-back to the drawing boards!
Patprof
Great reply-thanks. You have given me alot to think about. However, in re-reading my post, I might not have been accurate in describing the what and why of my experiment. First of all, since I was already focused on the free foot ("OK tip, pull back, flex, tip more...") it was hard for me to then focus on the stance foot ("flex, deflate, etc.). And when I say EXTEND the free foot at the end of the turn-I didn't mean to suggest up unweighting. It feels more like I'm extending diagonally in the direction of the new turn. It just seemed to me that whether I focus on flexing/relaxing the stance foot or extending (at the end of the turn) the free foot it was a ying/yang sort of thing and the end result was the same. Bottom line-you have much more expertise than I do in this matter and I certainly respect your thoughts on the matter. Damn-back to the drawing boards!
Patprof
- Guest
by Guest » Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:24 pm
Jay-it's me again. I have re-read your next to last paragragh at least ten times (shoulders stay the same distance off the snow...") I also tried the pole experiment. I'm just not getting HOW to do this. Can you take another stab at trying to explain this to an old guy. I really want to understand this.
Thanks again
Patprof
Thanks again
Patprof
- Guest
Sucking up the old stance leg in release
by SkierSynergy » Wed Mar 09, 2005 10:23 pm
The image below is way simplistic, but I think it will help some.
Positions A, B, and C are the same person in different parts of the transition. Position A is just before the release. Position B is when the skis are flat to the surface of the snow and Position C is when the committment to the new turn is infull swing. Of course during this process the skis wil also start to redirect down the hill but ignore that for the sake of simplicity. To start, ignore the red arrow. In position A, let's say that the shouldlers are distance X off the surface of the snow (as measured perpedicular to the slope). If the body is kept the same length, then the distance X will increase at position B. There wil be a nominal up movement. If there is an actual increase in the length of the body this up movement will even be greater.
Given a consistent turn radius/energy, my suggestion was that the shoulders follow the red line. The only way this can hapen is if the legs flex to shorten the length of the body. From position A to B this occurs by flexing the old stance leg. It is this movenment in the old stance leg that brings the skis flat to the surface of the snow. The same leg will continue to flex more to draw the CM into the turn as it develops and the new stance leg will legnthen as the turn progresses.
In this way, the movement is the same in the top of the turnas it is in the bottom. The leg towards the intended direction of the turn relaxes/flexes to start and increase the turn.
Because people, in general, tend to orient themselves in relation to true horizontal, when skiers are in position A, they feel like they will have to suck up (collapse) the old stance knee into their chests to get the CM to follow the red line. I feel like I wil have to collapse and fall down the slope as I try to collapse my CM closer to the snow than where I start. That is what it feel like. Of course the feeling lags behind what actually happens, that's why you try to go beyond what you think is comfortable and even then, it usually isn't enough.
Now my pooint about lengthening the stance leg through the turn and standing on it is for a lot of reasons, but here, it is so at the end of the turn, there is some room to flex into the next turn. Lots of people flex both legs the most in the bottom of the turn and then there is very little left to flex in order to release. As a result, the most common action is to extend the new stance leg right onto it's BTE. I always like to say that the flexion of the release in the old stance leg comes in diminishing returns. The biggest benefits come in the first 25% of flexion. If you have already used that up you have to do even more flexion to get the same release effect.
Another point here. Like many people, I also tend to flex my stance leg when the free leg flexes and lose some power in the turn that I could have -- this is also more tiring. So, I have to consciously think of allowing the stance leg to legnthen. It is more of a feeling of "standing on the stance leg" to pressure it than pushing on it.
There is a big difference between the stance leg lengthening because the free foot/leg action moves the CM inside the turn and pushing the CM inside the turn by extending the stance leg. These are two opposite causal chains and they have very different overall effects. The former keeps the stance leg passive, the later tends to introduce all sorts of bad stuff into the system that is unnecessary and inneffective.
I hope this is clearer.
Positions A, B, and C are the same person in different parts of the transition. Position A is just before the release. Position B is when the skis are flat to the surface of the snow and Position C is when the committment to the new turn is infull swing. Of course during this process the skis wil also start to redirect down the hill but ignore that for the sake of simplicity. To start, ignore the red arrow. In position A, let's say that the shouldlers are distance X off the surface of the snow (as measured perpedicular to the slope). If the body is kept the same length, then the distance X will increase at position B. There wil be a nominal up movement. If there is an actual increase in the length of the body this up movement will even be greater.
Given a consistent turn radius/energy, my suggestion was that the shoulders follow the red line. The only way this can hapen is if the legs flex to shorten the length of the body. From position A to B this occurs by flexing the old stance leg. It is this movenment in the old stance leg that brings the skis flat to the surface of the snow. The same leg will continue to flex more to draw the CM into the turn as it develops and the new stance leg will legnthen as the turn progresses.
In this way, the movement is the same in the top of the turnas it is in the bottom. The leg towards the intended direction of the turn relaxes/flexes to start and increase the turn.
Because people, in general, tend to orient themselves in relation to true horizontal, when skiers are in position A, they feel like they will have to suck up (collapse) the old stance knee into their chests to get the CM to follow the red line. I feel like I wil have to collapse and fall down the slope as I try to collapse my CM closer to the snow than where I start. That is what it feel like. Of course the feeling lags behind what actually happens, that's why you try to go beyond what you think is comfortable and even then, it usually isn't enough.
Now my pooint about lengthening the stance leg through the turn and standing on it is for a lot of reasons, but here, it is so at the end of the turn, there is some room to flex into the next turn. Lots of people flex both legs the most in the bottom of the turn and then there is very little left to flex in order to release. As a result, the most common action is to extend the new stance leg right onto it's BTE. I always like to say that the flexion of the release in the old stance leg comes in diminishing returns. The biggest benefits come in the first 25% of flexion. If you have already used that up you have to do even more flexion to get the same release effect.
Another point here. Like many people, I also tend to flex my stance leg when the free leg flexes and lose some power in the turn that I could have -- this is also more tiring. So, I have to consciously think of allowing the stance leg to legnthen. It is more of a feeling of "standing on the stance leg" to pressure it than pushing on it.
There is a big difference between the stance leg lengthening because the free foot/leg action moves the CM inside the turn and pushing the CM inside the turn by extending the stance leg. These are two opposite causal chains and they have very different overall effects. The former keeps the stance leg passive, the later tends to introduce all sorts of bad stuff into the system that is unnecessary and inneffective.
I hope this is clearer.
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by Guest » Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:10 am
Jay
I got it! There is nothing like a good night's sleep to clear the mind. What a great post-I'm sure this will help others as well. I'm headed out the door for the slopes-you have given me much to practice today. Thanks Jay-I really appreciate your help.
Patprof
I got it! There is nothing like a good night's sleep to clear the mind. What a great post-I'm sure this will help others as well. I'm headed out the door for the slopes-you have given me much to practice today. Thanks Jay-I really appreciate your help.
Patprof
- Guest
by patprof65 » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:08 pm
Jay,
I hate to resurrect this post but I'm confused (AGAIN). I just thought I really understood your points and then I clicked on the new Clendenin Mastering Moguls: The Most Important Moment In Skiing section. When I watch the video clip of the woman skiing, and read John's description of Four-Edge Skiing, isn't she doing exactly what I originally described? Does this just apply to mogul skiing--or am I still mis-reading something?
Patprof
PS. Sad day today-put my skis away for the season and I'm headed to Florida tomorrow.( I can only put my patient, non-skiing wife off for just so long!). I'm already feeling withdrawl symptoms!!
I hate to resurrect this post but I'm confused (AGAIN). I just thought I really understood your points and then I clicked on the new Clendenin Mastering Moguls: The Most Important Moment In Skiing section. When I watch the video clip of the woman skiing, and read John's description of Four-Edge Skiing, isn't she doing exactly what I originally described? Does this just apply to mogul skiing--or am I still mis-reading something?
Patprof
PS. Sad day today-put my skis away for the season and I'm headed to Florida tomorrow.( I can only put my patient, non-skiing wife off for just so long!). I'm already feeling withdrawl symptoms!!
- patprof65
- patprof65
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