Inside foot pullback

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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby cheesehead » Sat Jan 16, 2016 9:13 am

Great! Thanks, that is extremely helpful.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 10:06 am

cheesehead wrote:Great! Thanks, that is extremely helpful.


Here's an old post from Jay (black level PMTS coach) this is great.

SkierSynergy wrote:It's not about a position in which you must stay. It's about understanding a cause and effect relationship.

IF you want to get in the driver's seat, then pulling a foot/feet back would be a good thing to do.

When would it be useful to be in the driver's seat? simple answer.
If I have my skis on, I like to be in the driver's seat.

So, when should I have tension to keep/pull the feet back? The answer is obvious.
There is no inconsistency with "keep my feet back" and "pull my feet back."
It's just a matter of degree in the same movement/effort .

If you want to move the feet back, a general rule for when it is easier to move the feet back is when they are lightened.

Flexing the inside leg during tipping lightens it. It is easier to pull it back.
The point at which one flexes and rolls through the transition at the top of the turn, is an obvious point that is easier to pull both skis back.
Choose your medicine.

Another simple rule is that I would rather stay out of the back seat than try to get back in the front seat once I lose it.
But everyone loses it. The main thing is not trying to ski in a position but a be able to understand and control the movements.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby gaku » Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:31 pm

Max_501 wrote:
Carl R wrote:
Carl R wrote:Since the leg is attached in the hip, moving the foot backwards will at some point cause the tip to dive and pressure the snow. If the inside ski is lifted and kept above snow the free foot callback can't be very hard.


But on this forum we can find many pictures and videos that show a lifted free foot with a strong pullback. Learning to balance over the outside ski while managing the inside foot is a fundamental requirement of becoming an advanced PMTS skier and it starts with Book 1.

If you are serious about learning PMTS then please read this thread -

Learning PMTS - Info for New Students of PMTS


It's a matter of dorsiflexion control at the ankle, no? If you get too much pressure on the ski tip by pulling the free foot further back, it means the foot is plantarflexed or the leg is overly pulled back (so that the angle of the ankle can't counter the effect of the leg shin's angle). Personally, I find that contracting the hamstring and pulling the feet back actually helps with the dorsiflexion, so that the ski tip maintains its angle to the snow . If that muscle group coordination isn't developed, I recommend some off-snow sprint drills focusing on dorsiflexion.That will develop the cause/effect relationship you're looking for of hamstring/gastrocnemius contraction and ankle dorsiflexion. Ski tip control, then, becomes an effect of those two movements done correctly. Once you learn dorsiflexion, the flexion will come easier and more naturally because the lower leg muscles (now activated) will aid and fine-tune the flexion of the knee. Which means that in addition to helping with the ski's angle to the snow, it will make the pullback movement itself more efficient.

You can test that right now, actually: keep your ankle relaxed . Contract the hamstring / pull the heel toward your butt. During this movement, hold your fingers over the upper calf muscles (right below the knee joint). If you feel tension in the upper calf muscles now, you're actually dorsiflexing your ankle to some degree. Point your toes down and you will feel how the upper calf muscles are relaxed during the movement, but the hamstrings are contracting. This would lead to increased tip pressure the more you pulled back the feet. Now, press your toes up and towards your knee / dorsiflex your ankle (use the cue that works best for you). Pull the leg back. Notice the tension in the gastrocnemius muscle group (particularly the medial head you will feel) in addition to the hamstring. Also, the foot's angle to the floor is now less than when the foot wasn't dorsiflexed. This transfers directly to the execution of the phantom move.


A question, Max, how much muscular tension is needed to avoid horisontal separation and even edge angles during a turn, particularly on icy, steep conditions?
I think I pressed the free boot too hard against the stance boot this weekend, at the expense of ankle articulation, becaue I struggled with getting grip on the two footed release to full turn drill when there was ice on a red terrain. I could do the archs as described in the books when it was either icy or steep, but not when both conditions were present (carried a Kindle version with me to verify the execution).

PS: Why practice drills on such bad conditions? Way ahead of you :wink: : little snow, -25 degrees celsius, lots of people skidding away snow on the steeper parts, only 1 groomed terrain open. It's a long terrain though, so it varied between green, to blue, to red conditions. Really desperate times here in southern Norway - 30 cm snow was all there was in other sections of the mountain!

I know the book says the muscular tension will actually help with edge grip - but for me it lead to less ankle articulation. Was I doing it too hard? Do I just need better coordination to maintain both movements at the same time (ankle tipping + free foot isometric tension), so that doing one movement doesn't compromise the other?

Gonna try using a sponge or glove between my feet next weekend practicing the phantom move. My hope is that will help me get the idea of appropriate isometric force, while the focus can stay on tipping the feet. What other objects are good to practice with (I don't have the ball HH demonstrates with)?
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby jbotti » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:33 pm

I think it is important not to make a very simple concept and a very simple command more complicated than it is.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Robert0325 » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:51 pm

The more I pullback my inside foot, the more I lift the tail of the inside ski.
I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing?
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby mardale » Wed Jan 20, 2016 5:11 pm

make sure you're dorsiflexing correspondingly

http://pmts.org/index.php/read-a-talk/l ... s-and-hows
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Ken » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:36 pm

Robert0325 wrote:The more I pullback my inside foot, the more I lift the tail of the inside ski.
I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing?

Where's your inside hip? You want to push the inside hip forward (part of the counteracting movement) at the same time you pull that foot back. Sounds goofy; works great.

My ankle flexes little. I can't get the ski tips even due to the flexing of the inside leg and the stiffness of the boot, but I still pull back strongly and get the benefit of the body staying forward. None of the people I coach have a tail lift problem. Are you getting yourself twisted around and facing the hill?...bad dog.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 6:57 pm

Robert0325 wrote:The more I pullback my inside foot, the more I lift the tail of the inside ski.
I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing?


Lifting the tail is a good thing.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:07 pm

Ken wrote:You want to push the inside hip forward (part of the counteracting movement) at the same time you pull that foot back.


How does a skier PUSH the inside hip forward?
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby CO_Steve » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:16 pm

Max_501 wrote:
Ken wrote:You want to push the inside hip forward (part of the counteracting movement) at the same time you pull that foot back.


How does a skier PUSH the inside hip forward?



Once in a camp Jay was telling our group that different people got this movement through different means. Some responded to pushing the inside hit forward, others by pulling the outside hip back, and yet others by rotating around their spine. I have always been a pull the outside hip back person. I was helping a friend's wife a couple years ago with some lessons. She could not get this movement at all. When I remembered what Jay had said I gave up on pulling the hip back (my personal cue) to rotating around the spine. Zero results. Feeling sort of frustrated I said try pushing the inside hip forward. Bang! Perfect counter. So whatever works I guess.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:28 pm

It's important to remember that the application of individual movement ideas used at camp works because there is a trained coach watching and correcting any problems. We don't have that luxury on the forum.
Last edited by Max_501 on Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby emakarios » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:13 pm

CO Steve, I think Jay was referring to counteracting, not foot pullback. Counter rotating the upper body in the opposite direction of the ski turn would result in a inside hip forward and an outside hip back. Pulling the foot back, esp the inside foot back in a turn is the discussion here.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby CO_Steve » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:34 pm

emakarios wrote:CO Steve, I think Jay was referring to counteracting, not foot pullback. Counter rotating the upper body in the opposite direction of the ski turn would result in a inside hip forward and an outside hip back. Pulling the foot back, esp the inside foot back in a turn is the discussion here.



I thought that's where we had gone.

Ken wrote:
You want to push the inside hip forward (part of the counteracting movement) at the same time you pull that foot back.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:22 pm

In PMTS we strive for movement specificity, therefore suggesting movements that are bio-mechanically impossible is not part of the normal program. Would HH tell you to push the hips forward instead of pull the feet back? No, because one is impossible.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby NoCleverName » Fri Jan 22, 2016 4:17 am

Max ...it appears the thread took a right angle turn when Ken suggested that foot pullback is enhanced with counter; he suggested his own cue of inside-forward for counter.

You are quite right to firmly state that pullback has nothing to do with hip.
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