Inside foot pullback

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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:21 pm

Carl R wrote:Thank you for the answers. It has given me much more details. I'm very grateful!


Have you considered reading Books 1, 2, and watching the videos for both as well as the videos for Essentials? There is so much detail there that is impossible to summarize on the forum.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Carl R » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:29 pm

Max_501 wrote:Lift the free foot off the snow and the tip won't load.

Since the leg is attached in the hip, moving the foot backwards will at some point cause the tip to dive and pressure the snow. If the inside ski is lifted and kept above snow the free foot callback can't be very hard.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Carl R » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:30 pm

Max_501 wrote:
Carl R wrote:Thank you for the answers. It has given me much more details. I'm very grateful!


Have you considered reading Books 1, 2, and watching the videos for both as well as the videos for Essentials? There is so much detail there that is impossible to summarize on the forum.


Absolutely. You are right.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:07 pm

Carl R wrote:Since the leg is attached in the hip, moving the foot backwards will at some point cause the tip to dive and pressure the snow. If the inside ski is lifted and kept above snow the free foot callback can't be very hard.


Let us know when you've mastered this move.

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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Icanski » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:29 pm

Max, 1
;-)
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Carl R » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:17 pm

Max_501 wrote:
Carl R wrote:Since the leg is attached in the hip, moving the foot backwards will at some point cause the tip to dive and pressure the snow. If the inside ski is lifted and kept above snow the free foot callback can't be very hard.


Let us know when you've mastered this move.

Image


I could perform it years ago. However the word mastered and the fact that you chose a photo of a wc skier in a course makes it quite possible for you to dismiss it regardless how i ever perform it.
I could never equal Rocca in his prime, thats obvious.

I must ask, why this attitude? It seems like you dislike the very fact I'm asking a question.

Do you want me to leave this forum?
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:20 am

Carl R wrote:I must ask, why this attitude? It seems like you dislike the very fact I'm asking a question.


You made the following statement after I provided an answer you apparently didn't like.

Carl R wrote:Since the leg is attached in the hip, moving the foot backwards will at some point cause the tip to dive and pressure the snow. If the inside ski is lifted and kept above snow the free foot callback can't be very hard.


But on this forum we can find many pictures and videos that show a lifted free foot with a strong pullback. Learning to balance over the outside ski while managing the inside foot is a fundamental requirement of becoming an advanced PMTS skier and it starts with Book 1.

If you are serious about learning PMTS then please read this thread -

Learning PMTS - Info for New Students of PMTS
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby njdiver85 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:25 am

Max_501 wrote:

Here's a slow motion clip of HH carving a 40 degree pitch. Notice how the inside boot is pulled back so far that it is touching the outside knee. In extreme angles like this there will be some lead due to CA and bending the inside leg but it is controlled by a strong contraction of the inside leg hamstring.



Just read this comments, and this actually clarifies something I've been wondering about since I started reading the books and watching all the videos. I've been trying to reconcile the idea of free foot pullback (to the point of having the tips almost even if not even) with some of the videos of HH doing high speed short radius turns where his inside ski tip seems to lead more. This one comment above seems to explain how this all fits together. Thanks, Max_501
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Carl R » Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:49 am

Max_501 wrote:
Carl R wrote:I must ask, why this attitude? It seems like you dislike the very fact I'm asking a question.


You made the following statement after I provided an answer you apparently didn't like.

Carl R wrote:Since the leg is attached in the hip, moving the foot backwards will at some point cause the tip to dive and pressure the snow. If the inside ski is lifted and kept above snow the free foot callback can't be very hard.


But on this forum we can find many pictures and videos that show a lifted free foot with a strong pullback. Learning to balance over the outside ski while managing the inside foot is a fundamental requirement of becoming an advanced PMTS skier and it starts with Book 1.

If you are serious about learning PMTS then please read this thread -

Learning PMTS - Info for New Students of PMTS


I notice you and I have different opinions on what a strong pullback consists of. In my view, what you seem to be describing is keeping the inside leg in a favorable relative position, by pullback.

I have duly noted that you want me to read expert skier 1, but I'm currently reading another book which I intend to finish before I go through the essentials book once more. Then I'm open for other books. If that is an issue, then by all means just ignore me.
Last edited by Carl R on Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby AnI » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:30 am

Carl_R, I do not know how much experience you have with PMTS, I think a comment from a slightly different perspective may help you understand what is going on.

First of all, Max_501 is one of the PMTS coaches. He has been teaching at PMTS camps, on and off, for many years. I have never been in his group, but I have seen him at the camps. He has as much knowledge about PMTS as other best coaches. He not only answers questions during camps, but also volunteers his time to answer questions on the forum. He answers more often than Harald or Geoff, and we are all grateful for that. Most PMTS'ers are like this, they want to share the knowledge. However, there are several people on this forum who are "black belts" and they are in the best position to answer any difficult questions. Max_501 is one of them.

A reference to the books which Max made has nothing to do with his attitude. It is his "signature answer", I lost count of how many times he wrote it. He believes that many questions have been answered many times already, and he is right.

Having said that, I can relate to what you are thinking. Harald's books are very detailed and contain 90% of what you may hear from the coaches. A few things have changed over the time, some drills are not used much, new drills appeared (e.g., Angry Mom), timing of counteracting has changed slightly (now Harald teaches to hold it through the transition), but the fundamentals did not change and the method did not change either. The problem which you, I, and other readers have experienced with these books are two (and they are not related to the content of the books).

The first one is that most people who come to PMTS have fairly high self-rating of their skiing. They think they are advanced skiers at the very least, if not experts, and that the drills in the book are for beginners. They expect advanced stuff and just do not see themselves working on easy drills. They think they are past them. It is the main reason why people flip through the pages, read the last chapter, and get nothing from the book. It takes a camp or two to see how the true experts ski to re-evaluate your own level and to appreciate the significance of simple drills and their impact on mastering the essentials. Until you went through this, you will continue skipping through pages. PMTS requires a change of one's mindset.

The second issue comes from the way how Harald wrote his books. He talks about critical things quite occasionally, he does not emphasize and repeat five times in bold letters that this word is important and makes a key difference. He expects readers to have open mind and pay attention. When you read his books for the first time, you often make assumptions. You may have done a similar drill in the past, and you may not notice one phrase in the description which totally changes how it is done. You have to read the description of every drill very carefully and many times to discover these small details. It also helps to try every drill and see how it works for you. It is surprising to find how difficult it is to make simple drills!

The books are what they are. Harald is not going to change them to "skiing for dummies" by adding all those explanation marks (even though they could help many readers to get his messages on the first read). He is not going to highlight and emphasize words to make sure that everyone gets it even when flipping through the pages. For better or for worse, one has to read each of his books multiple times. The best is to read the book, go ski, then read it again, then go to the PMTS forum and search for answers to similar questions to validate you got it right. This forum has a lot of additional information, or rather, the same information presented in a different way. All PMTS students use this forum as a resource. Answers from the experts may be short, but they are always to the point.

Many skills and even essentials make increasingly more sense once you start practicing them. Theoretical discussion without practice oftentimes does not make sense, it is hard to get why and how each movement works without practicing it. Many if not all PMTS movements are subtle. It may not make a lot of sense what Max is saying when you first read it, but after a couple of hours of trial and error on the snow it will make more sense. Just give it a try, maybe get a video of yourself taken, and if it still does not work, come back, show what you've done, and ask for help.

This is the only skiing-related forum on the Internet where people get consistent and professional advice and no garbage.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:08 pm

Carl R wrote:In my view, what you seem to be describing is keeping the inside leg in a favorable relative position, by pullback


In PMTS parlance that is part of "inside foot management".
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby l2ski » Fri Jan 15, 2016 6:32 pm

I have duly noted that you want me to read expert skier 1, but I'm currently reading another book which I intend to finish before I go through the essentials book once more. Then I'm open for other books. If that is an issue, then by all means just ignore me.


If you had books 1 & 2, you could be directed to the answers to your questions; there would be no need for you
to read either book entirely.

Book 2, Chapter 6, pages 63-66 is about free foot management; this would give you good details on the pull back.
Figure 6-2 shows where the free foot should be during a phantom move. The entire Chapter 6 is actually
titled "Free Foot Management".
Book 2, Chapter 5, Figures 5-1 and 5-2 show the phantom move and how the free foot should be management
during sequential time segments of a given turn.
Book 2, Chapter 5, page 60 also contains some explanation about the pulling movements.

Max's cheat sheet is also great; study the turn sequences and note where the free foot is at each stage of the turn.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby emakarios » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:33 pm

If you pull back both skis and a binding releases then either your din is set too low or you pulled back too hard. I would check the din before assuming the second possibility. :D
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby cheesehead » Sat Jan 16, 2016 7:39 am

Pullback happens in transition. It is a fore/aft move and not part of inside foot management (since your feet are equal in transition)

(Correct me if I'm wrong). I have been working on the timing. Can it be done continuously with the release? That is, in one movement, release and then immediately pull back?
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:27 am

cheesehead wrote:Pullback happens in transition.


Inside foot pullback starts at transition and continues throughout the turn.

cheesehead wrote:It is a fore/aft move and not part of inside foot management (since your feet are equal in transition)


Pullback is most definitely part of inside foot management! See page 64 of Book 2.

cheesehead wrote:Can it be done continuously with the release? That is, in one movement, release and then immediately pull back?


For developing skiers it must be done with the release or you'll enter the turn too far back. This topic has been covered many times on the forum. One example from 2007 -

Max_501 wrote:
jbotti wrote:When do you pull the free foot back?


1: Anytime that you feel the need to rebalance because you feel that your hips are getting back.

2: If we look at two turns connected by the transition we'll find that at the end of the first turn the inside foot will be forward. Because the inside leg is about to become our new outside leg its very important to pull the free foot back at the transition (its also easier because you are light at the transition). If you don't, you will enter the turn with the hips too far back (you can see some of this in my video when my hips get behind the feet). In addition, some amount of holding the free foot back is generally beneficial to maintain solid fore/aft balance. Keep in mind that fore/aft balance is not a static position and must be changed based on the turn and terrain.

BTW, at transition you can actually pull both feet back because you are flexed and light so its fairly easy to do late. Once the outside ski is weighted if much more difficult to move fore/aft.
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