Inside foot pullback

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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Skizoo » Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:28 pm

CO_Steve wrote:
Max_501 wrote:
Ken wrote:You want to push the inside hip forward (part of the counteracting movement) at the same time you pull that foot back.

How does a skier PUSH the inside hip forward?

Once in a camp Jay was telling our group that different people got this movement through different means. Some responded to pushing the inside hit forward, others by pulling the outside hip back, and yet others by rotating around their spine. I have always been a pull the outside hip back person. I was helping a friend's wife a couple years ago with some lessons. She could not get this movement at all. When I remembered what Jay had said I gave up on pulling the hip back (my personal cue) to rotating around the spine. Zero results. Feeling sort of frustrated I said try pushing the inside hip forward. Bang! Perfect counter. So whatever works I guess.

Steve is 100% correct, he is referring to my wife, it clicked and she has not forgotten.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby CO_Steve » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:49 pm

Hi Dave,
Good to see you're still around. Ping me if you ever get to the Aspen area.

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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 8:14 pm

Skizoo wrote:Steve is 100% correct, he is referring to my wife, it clicked and she has not forgotten.

That's great that it worked for your wife, but it is not a standard PMTS instruction for the PMTS forum (HH has said as much in the past). The problem is that without video we don't know what someone on the forum is doing and telling them to push the inside hip forward or to pull the outside hip back could easily cause other problems. It's different when you are working in person and can try everything under the sun until something clicks.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby gaku » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:25 pm

Max_501 wrote:In PMTS we strive for movement specificity, therefore suggesting movements that are bio-mechanically impossible is not part of the normal program. Would HH tell you to push the hips forward instead of pull the feet back? No, because one is impossible.

I'm confused:

"If you are not moving your inisde half of the body, hip, shoulder, arm and hand forward during the arc, you are rotating. Rotating steals pressure and edge hold." - HH

"Counter acting is reversing the forces that act on your body in an arc. In this case it's counter acting with your hips. To counteract you have to physically make an effort to move your outside hip back." - HH

Moving the inside hip forward versus pushing the inside hip forward / pulling the outside hip backward -

I realise cues have to be precisely stated, but "pushing" and "moving" has to be a matter of semantics, no? I'm not a native English speaker, so maybe these active verbs inspire different actions, in which case, point taken.

Here is one of my favourite descriptions of CA in one of his blogposts, I find it interesting how everything on the inside of the body BUT the inside leg is supposed to move forward during the turn:

"Here you see Hirscher moving the inside half into a stronger relationship to his skis as the arc develops. his inside hand keeps pace with his downward movement on the slope and his arcing skis. Since the inside hand is connected to his arm, shoulder and torso, (the inside half) this always leads where his ski tips are headed. This is a counter acting movement and it strengthens the skeletal alignment as forces build; therefore Hirscher can hold more forces than other skiers."

The more pullback - the more ski performance - the shorter the arch - the quicker the turn - the more CA necessary to maintain edge hold and manage outside pressure building throughout the turn. Seems like pullback / CA work synergistically so that lacking in either would result in a loss of turn quality greater than the sum of each part.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby rwd » Sat Jan 23, 2016 7:18 am

I think the confusion is between a movement and an effect. CA with the hips is performed by rotation of the pelvis around the heads of the femurs using the hip rotator muscles (gluteals). The RESULT or EFFECT of that MOVEMENT is that the inside free hip moves forward and the outside stance hip moves back relative to the spine. The inside hip moving forward or the outside moving back can be CUES but they are not properly accomplished by PUSHING or PULLING. This is different than PULLING back the feet (movement) through contraction of the hamstrings. Practicing the Angry Mother exercises in a dryland setting can be very enlightening.
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Re: Inside foot pullback

Postby Max_501 » Sat Jan 23, 2016 8:17 am

gaku wrote:I'm confused...

Sorry, I wasn't as clear as I should have been in that post where I was trying to show the importance of movement specificity. The example I provided compares common instructions on getting forward. HH teaches us to "pull the feet back" because "pushing the hips forward" is impossible. If you give someone a movement instruction on this forum there should be a biomechanically sound explanation on how to perform the movement. Again, this is different than working with a student in-person where the coach gets immediate confirmation on the success or failure of a particular instruction. It's important to understand that a personal biomechanically incorrect cue/instruction may lead to unintended/bad movements in others.
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