We are ready to shut this site down.

PMTS Forum

Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby blackthorn » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:48 pm

Max_501 wrote:
Bonz wrote:I hope the forum doesn't shut down. There is a lot of good knowledge here.

But as for the lack of traffic on the forum, to me its not surprising. Its not an inviting place. Sorry, but it really isnt. I can see a lot of people finding the website/forum being intimidated and not hanging around for more than a look. Its really surprising there isnt a "Beginner Forum". Basically anyone thats never heard of or practiced PMTS is a beginner. The prevailing opinion of most of this community is that everyone should practice PMTS and if they dont they are really missing out, etc... but the recruiting department is pretty weak, as so far as the vibe of the forum towards "new people" is.

Im just thankful, im probably a little more curious and thick-skinned than the average person, and delved a little more into this than the average person would; despite some deterrents.


If a new reader searches before asking a question chances are excellent that they will find the answer before they post. Nearly every question I can think of has been asked and answered multiple times.


yes Max. But comments still stand. So, what to do?
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby Robert0325 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:00 am

Bonz wrote:I hope the forum doesn't shut down. There is a lot of good knowledge here.

But as for the lack of traffic on the forum, to me its not surprising. Its not an inviting place. Sorry, but it really isnt. I can see a lot of people finding the website/forum being intimidated and not hanging around for more than a look. Its really surprising there isnt a "Beginner Forum". Basically anyone thats never heard of or practiced PMTS is a beginner. The prevailing opinion of most of this community is that everyone should practice PMTS and if they dont they are really missing out, etc... but the recruiting department is pretty weak, as so far as the vibe of the forum towards "new people" is.

Im just thankful, im probably a little more curious and thick-skinned than the average person, and delved a little more into this than the average person would; despite some deterrents.

I can see Bonz's point. To be fair though I'm not sure the forum was initially intended for PMTS follower in general. The Home page states "The Association of PMTS Direct Parallel Instructors". An instructor I certainly am not, so when I first registered I felt that maybe I was intruding, but once in I've been made to feel very welcome, and the information available is second to none. Maybe the home page title needs changing/updating to make it clear that the site if for all PMTS followers, presuming that is the case of course?
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:04 am

The home page for this forum is

PMTS Forum home page

The PMTS forum was moved to the pmts.org domain back in 2008. Prior to that is was hosted at realskiers which was run by a friend of Harald's. I don't know why HH originally created the forum but historically its been used as a distance learning system to supplement the PMTS books, DVDs, and camps.

If you are learning PMTS from a distance then its very helpful to read the books and watch the videos, starting with Expert Skier 1.

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And if you are attempting to teach others I'd suggest adding the Instructor Manual to your collection

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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby RRT » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:14 am

Max_501 » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:04 pm

Max wrote:
"If a new reader searches before asking a question chances are excellent that they will find the answer before they post. Nearly every question I can think of has been asked and answered multiple times."

Is this not a good reason to provide a dedicated site that is intended to be research in nature only with additons made when appropriate much the way new videos are produced with the idea of focus points? Or, if it's all been said, then it's all been said.
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby NoCleverName » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:16 am

Since this is the customer-facing component of PMTS, RTFM is not the proper response to a potential customer's question.
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby Max_501 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:48 am

NoCleverName wrote:Since this is the customer-facing component of PMTS, RTFM is not the proper response to a potential customer's question.


Perhaps you missed the point that this forum's primary purpose has been to support existing customers. Harald's free videos reach out to potential customers, giving them an idea of what they can expect if they decide to take the PMTS journey.

You may not like it but the correct answer to the far majority of questions posted by new readers is to start with Expert Skier 1. Expecting HH or the experienced PMTS members of this forum to rewrite the material in the books and on this forum is unreasonable. HH has done a phenomenal job with the books, DVDs. There is so much detail in Expert Skier 1 and 2 that is missed because readers skim rather than study the books. And this forum is a treasure trove of information.

There's even a subforum of this site for free MA!

And yet we've got readers here that expect even more???
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby Robert0325 » Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:55 am

Max_501 wrote:
NoCleverName wrote:Since this is the customer-facing component of PMTS, RTFM is not the proper response to a potential customer's question.


Perhaps you missed the point that this forum's primary purpose has been to support existing customers. Harald's free videos reach out to potential customers, giving them an idea of what they can expect if they decide to take the PMTS journey.

You may not like it but the correct answer to the far majority of questions posted by new readers is to start with Expert Skier 1. Expecting HH or the experienced PMTS members of this forum to rewrite the material in the books and on this forum is unreasonable. HH has done a phenomenal job with the books, DVDs. There is so much detail in Expert Skier 1 and 2 that is missed because readers skim rather than study the books. And this forum is a treasure trove of information.

There's even a subforum of this site for free MA!

And yet we've got readers here that expect even more???


Max - I certainly don't expect even more. The information on this site is brilliant.
You've hit the nail on the head about starting with Expert Skier 1 and progressing from there. Unfortunately I made the mistake after discovering Haralds Videos on YouTube of going straight for the Essentials Book thinking that the Expert Skier books were out of date as 1 was written in the 90's. How wrong could I be! I've since gone back and read ES1&2. If ever there was a Beginners / Introduction page created then for me it would just need to say start with Book 1 and progress from there. Oh, and maybe describe the classic Phantom move as you have tirelessly and eloquently described in many of your replies to skiers questions on this forum!
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby emakarios » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:24 am

I see the forum functioning well as a support for existing practitioners of PMTS, who are inherently always in a developmental stage (just like all of the coaches in HHS!).
I don't see the forum as a good platform for people new to PMTS-a good bit of time and energy is burned up by people like Harald H., Geoff D., Max 502 and J Botti attempting to point new folks towards a path of inquiry and development that is pretty straightforward to most of us who have headed down the l path. It often looks like a "rinse and repeat" process, which is probably a bit frustrating for those offering info. And of course there are always the few "ethereal" types who are not active PMTS students and are asking questions that would be better asked on a forum for theoretical physics, a dating site or the latest on-line gaming craze.
Should the forum be open to all to read, but only accessible for posting to qualified participants? If so, inquiries from people new to the system would need to be addressed in some other way than allowing them to post on the forum.
And perhaps the process of "banning" certain types of participants who get involved in useless rants and questions could be expedited.
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby jbotti » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:09 pm

For those that don't like "Page one Book one" for an answer, there is only one question, have you ever been on Epicski? Ask a question there and you will quickly get 25 responses most of them contradictory, and then in the same thread 5 guys will carry on an argument about who is right. We (moderators and HH) have made a very conscious decision with this site. Its designed as a forum to support the learning and advancing PMTS skier. Its not an enrollment vehicle for Harbskisystems. The HSS camps are full by September every year and even I need to get lucky if I book a lesson with Harald or Diana past August to find a date that can work.

Now back to someone that is new to PMTS. Anyone that is being honest about skiing will tell you that improving one's skiing takes work and dedication. If one wants to take the PMTS route (and no one has to as there are a zillion so called experts willing to take one's time and money to help improve your skiing) there is a very clearly outlined gameplan to build the necessary foundations for advancing and for learning and mastering PMTS movement patterns. I guess I will shock no one when I say (no repeat) that this all starts on "Page one, Book 1". Knowing that this is the case, that there is a carefully designed path for success that starts with specific movements and exercises, why would we ever tell anyone something different.

So the next and obvious question comes back to why do so many people get told book 1, page 1? And maybe this isn't so obvious to everyone, but when we see questions and or movements in video that is posted, its obvious that the most basic PMTS fundamentals are missing both from the skiing and from the knowledge base. Sending one anywhere else would be disingenuous and a disservice. What I don't think anyone sees is a skier with strong tipping skills, strong CA and flexion that is lacking CB in their skiing get told to go back to Page 1 Book 1. The truth is that most skiers just starting to work on PMTS movements, pretty much all (myself included) think (or thought) they are/were better at the movements than they are/were. Anyone that has ever been to a camp remembers their first few days working with a PMTS instructor and seeing the video that proves that they aren't doing what they thought they were doing.

Now considering the moderators and HH have been doing this all for free for many years (and no, none of us think we can add what HH does) and we have all studied intently the PMTS literature, have done the drills, have been to camps and taken private lessons and some are blue level PMTS instructors, does it come as any surprise that at times we are less than enthusiastic about explaining something that could be answered with a minimum of effort either using the search function of the forum or by actually reading the books?

We also delete posts from time to time because we made a decision many years ago that we would not have this be like Epic where in one thread you will see 15 different contradictory responses and no one can figure the correct path to advance. So yes we delete posts that give incorrect information or lead people in the wrong direction. We continue to make every attempt to keep the threads and info on this forum in alignment with helping to advance PMTS skiers at all levels.

So I guess we could say that we are sorry that we haven't found a way to make this forum more inviting to the newbie, but that wouldn't be true. We have made choices, conscious ones to try and deliver a consistent message , that involves a designed and consistent path and that requires at its core YOUR WORK AND DEDICATION! Without that its all a waste of everyone's time and energy and all of us (mods, HH, Diana) are truly interested in seeing people advance, beyond their wildest dreams!
Balance: Essential in skiing and in life!
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby Kiwi » Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:13 am

Would the 6th essential be "hip dropping" as in the movement and not to be confused with hip dumping?
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby NoCleverName » Tue Jan 12, 2016 6:48 am

OK, let's go with the B1P1 option for a second. I notice that the 2nd editions of each have $12 Kindle editions and that they are free to Kindle Unlimited customers. It is worth pointing that out. It seems that Essentials is best purchased on the HSS site since it is a lot cheaper there than on Amazon (some intrigue there, I guess). There are some minor font issues with the Kindle books. I think Kindle Unlimited is about $10 a month; it does not come automatically with Prime.

So HH could probably whip up a nice little package or two of electronic books, with or without video, for anywhere of $20 to $60 or so. :D

So, at a minimum there out to be a page or something that has current, working links direct to these products. So they could be pointed out with ease.
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby Max_501 » Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:54 am

NoCleverName wrote:So, at a minimum there out to be a page or something that has current, working links direct to these products. So they could be pointed out with ease.


Thanks for volunteering!

You can start here -

http://harbskisystems.com/collections/books-videos
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby skifastDDS » Wed Jan 13, 2016 8:16 pm

I'm rather late to the party here, but I'd like to add my voice to the chorus of those who wish to keep this site going. I have learned a lot and met fellow students through this forum. There is nowhere else on the internet you can get this level of analysis and information, without any "noise" BS. Facebook is nowhere near equivalent, there is no organization and posts are not searchable.
"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."
-Robert Frost, "The Road Not Taken"
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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby Jeet » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:48 am

@skifastDDS Like - Not only is this site a gold mine for information, it has saved me a lot of money and time. If I didn't know better I would of gone and purchased

1. Cork foot beds
2. Wide pair of skiis
3. Rotary type skii boots
3. PRX binding vs PRD?
4. Possibly a supershape other than the speed
5. Taken lessons from BASI (Ouch)

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Re: We are ready to shut this site down.

Postby cheesehead » Fri Jan 15, 2016 9:09 am

The problem with the page one answer is that while there are many that have not cracked one of the books there are quite a few who have made an attempt but just haven't figured out how to apply the instructions.

So I think a better approach is the "SMIM" (single most important movement). That will often translate to the movements in the first few pages, if not page 1, but will help a skier who is trying to apply the book material but just isn't getting it.

I suspect that part of the problem is that most of the expert skiers here started out as athletically gifted from the get-go and just don't "get it" when people who are less gifted can't easily reproduce perfectly the book's instructions.

(My genuine klutz movement of the season came when I tried out our hill's new magic carpet. I fell getting on the thing.)

While "book 1 page 1" is a legitimate and usually justified response it is often perceived by the original poster as nonproductive and hostile.
--- aka John Carey
Madison, Wisconsin
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