Comparing National Demo Teams

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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:54 am

Apparently, even the Austrian school is teaching knee driving with upper body rotation.


The only way I can answer this is that the best Austrian racers don't knee drive and don't rotate. But even in some of their best ski instructor skiers, there is rotation and knee drive. So the only conclusion you can draw from this is, the Richie Berger types, figure out how to ski correctly. Even if they don't know how to explain it. I have heard Richie Berger explaining skiing in German, in an interview, he sounds no better than a PSIA instructor doing the same. However he can ski. So the two are disconnected. The more you work with some top athletes , not all, the more you find out their skiing and their knowledge don't always go hand in hand. There are 3 or 4 on the Austrian squad that are very good skiers, however they may not have the correct understanding. Don't forget this is ski school, not Austrian racing school coaching that the Austrian kids, like a Fenninger, get at Stams, the Austrian nation racing academy.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby DougD » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:36 am

h.harb wrote:
The more you work with some top athletes , not all, the more you find out their skiing and their knowledge don't always go hand in hand. There are 3 or 4 on the Austrian squad that are very good skiers, however they may not have the correct understanding.

The combination of high level skills with high level understanding is indeed rare. I once met two such skier/coaches on the same day, in a tiny town named Dumont. Pretty amazing.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:45 am

I find also that even in the PSIA squad, they can't do what they say they are trying to do. For example: After the transfer, steer your skis to an edge. OK at slow speeds, on a moderate slope, if you are a good athlete, you can accomplish something close. However, in high end, energy skiing, on steeper slopes, they can't do it. There best skiers can't ski their own technique. What they are forced to do when using their own description, is steer the ski, to an edge set, mostly a hard edge set, one with an "A frame finish". OK then it gets only worst, because they can't release, from there.They are virtually stuck on edge. They have to push off, or step out of the turn.

This is where the world cup skier, users a different technique, and PMTS teaches this technique right from the beginning. And for that reason PMTS skiers look totally different coming down the slopes.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby skijim13 » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:37 am

That is so true that PMTS skiing looks different many fellow skiers that are PSIA based don't like the form of my skiing but watch us skiing in cortrol and appear puzzled how we have good control. Funny thing is that many of the top level PSIA skiers came from a racing background and use some of these racing moves in their skiing but don't know it and think they are using all the PSIA moves. Sad to watch some of the skiers with a racing background join the ski school and start taking PSIA clinics and see their skiing get worst.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby skijim13 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 4:02 am

Statements from the PSIA newsfeed on interski were interesting, they said the PSIA is the backbone for quality learning from beginners to World Cup racers their is not a single person who can not benefit from them. They also said that snowsport instructors ski at slow speeds to teach, however in the racing events they skied fast and well ,and the top male and female racers were not that far away from the finish times of the 10 world cup racers. Exact wording can be found on the PSIA news feed.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:29 am

And did they also say the Iraq war and the invasion of Afghanistan was good for the country??? PSIA's self promoting press releases are entertaining and very creative, to bad they don't represent what is happening on the snow. But this isn't new.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:23 am

If you watch this video you may have the option of forming a different opinion about PSIA's performance at Interski than the one they try to promote. Especially the World Cup skiing part.


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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby skijim13 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:38 am

There skiing is not close to World cup skiing, you and your team of coaches skiing is where the PSIA should be going. The video shows a good reason not to use the wide stance they love to use never see good racers skiing like that. Before I learned PMTS I really did not know where my balance should be during a turn since the PSIA does not really define it. Never really could understand how to blend four skill presssure, edging, rotary, and balance together to obtain expert skiing.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:44 am

Interesting comments on the chairlift in this video. "The Swiss are using a movement based system." Wow, PMTS has been using, promoting and developing, and we have refined a movement based system for over 20 years. We are so far ahead of PSIA, their Skills approach is a joke. At the International Congress in At Anton, where we presented the PMTS system, in 2001, the Swiss Demo Team members and representatives were the most fascinated by PMTS and asked for my books. So I'm not surprised they are using a movement based system.

First, skills are something you either have or don't, and judging by PSIA skiing; they don't have control or management of any of the three; they so promote as the backbone of their system. They don't achieve early angles in their skiing. They do twist their skis, so, they don't have what they call rotary skills, in the least. And as far as pressure control, it's a joke, they control pressure by folding over and jamming their edges. This is a mess and it's so obvious when you watch it applied in a race course, or even in simple groomed demo skiing.

I've said this before, and it's worth repeating. If your best athletes, end up looking like what the PSIA Demo Team is presenting, don't you need to question your teaching method. And if the best athletes can't perform well, how does that translate to the less athlete people learning to ski with that system????
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby skijim13 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:07 am

Well, said. I worked very hard for many years to improve my skiing using the PSIA method and did not get far. When I discovered PMTS and started to use it in it has made major improvements in my skiing in a short time. Sad that the PSIA is taking peoples money and not giving them much back for it, except for a pin. Most PSIA members defend their system like a Religion and are not willing to think their is any other better way to ski.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:11 am

As many here can tell you, those trained in PMTS, there are many "movements" missing in PSIA Demo team skiing. Movements or lack of movements can easily seen and be objectively identified. Skills are subjective and murky. If you look at the opening skiing sequence of this video, what is obvious? Inside ski management movements are not in their skiing. When the inside ski is not going in the same direction as the outside ski and it's at a different angle, at the end of a turn; "tipping" is not a movement they have. How about exiting a turn? There are no releases. They have to push off the outside ski, releasing is letting the ski go, (flattening it) they are pushing on it, that is extending and engaging the ski "at the end" of the turn. They have no choice, because there was no tipping or engaging at the top of the turn. So substitute steering for engaging or tipping and you have what you see in the videos.

No this is obvious stuff and they don't see it. Because they can't with a Skill based system.
Image
Some wedge turns, some edge sets and some collapsing, and folding.

Image

Image
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:23 am

Racing: PSIA racing in GS t inter ski. Counter Balance is not in the Skills concept, obviously. They were not on 35 meter GS skis for this.
Image

And no this is not one turn out of context it was every turn like this.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby ComprexX » Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:18 am

Wow-the leaning and lack of counter are pretty glaring.
Harald--is it even possible to have strong counter balance and counter acting AND a "lot" of knee drive at the same time?
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby MarcS » Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:58 pm

I think some in the Aussie Demo team display CA and CB with knee drive because of poor foot management and movements,
as Harald has previously mentioned.
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Re: Comparing National Demo Teams

Postby h.harb » Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:50 pm

I always think to myself first, before answering, what would Hirscher do, what would Neureuther do in these situations? They have the right amount of flexing, tipping and a straight leg when the forces are high, they relax and flex to get the knee look. That is when you see the knees under the body bent, looks like knee drive but at a different time. And when you see that with Hirscher, etc. the forces are gone, it's already a transition. With these guys, the PSIA the Aussi guys, they have knee drive with pressure loaded into the knees. That is bad mojo.
However, the PSIA guys have thier skis flat and the speeds are non-existent, so there is less damage.
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