Do we actively pivot/twist/steer skis in PMTS?

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Do we actively pivot/twist/steer skis in PMTS?

Postby Max_501 » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:32 am

I've copied this post from the racing subforum for those that don't read over there as it's relevant to all PMTS skiers.

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First, let me toss out some hard earned insight on use of time as it relates to becoming an expert PMTS skier. It took me years to figure it out, but IMO, debating ski technique with TTS skiers is a complete wast of time. The issue is that TTS trained instructors/coaches truly believe that mastering active rotary movements (intentional recruitment of muscles to turn the skis in the direction of the turn) is a requirement for expert skiing. When one of my videos was posted on Epic it resulted in a lot of discussion with the TTS experts suggesting that I had very good rotary skills. When I pointed out that I don't actively use pivoting or ski redirection they disagreed because they could "see" it in the video. That belief system is so strong that even when I ski with TTS instructors and demonstrate things like a slow TFR they still see it is an active redirection/pivot of the skis. The debate is pointless because until a skier commits to skiing without active rotary they will likely continue to believe active rotary is a part of expert skiing.

If you research this subject by searching the PTMS forum you will find that HH developed PMTS based on expert (WC) level skiing and he has been very clear that any pivoting/redirection is passive.

Here are a few quotes from 2004:

Harald wrote:But the question you asked was, do we twist or pivot in the PMTS System? Answer, NO!!! The reference in the ongoing thread was about bump skiing at the top of the bump or mogul.

When I designed PMTS, I worked through ever conceivable input and resultant of actions. After I narrowed the skiing movements down to only the efficient movements; I tested the movements with students of all levels below experts, including beginners (remember I had a life time of coaching expert skiers, so I didn't need to research their movements). I found that you could teach skiing without referring to or teaching movements like pivoting, steering, or turning, parts of the body below the hips.

Now, as you all know, that doesn't mean we only achieve locked carved turns when using the PMTS system. In fact, at the early levels, PMTS is a very skidded progression. Brushed carves or skidded turns are achieved in PMTS by changing the duration and intensity of tipping. If I have speed and momentum, I can choose to carve or brush my turn, by how quickly and how much I tip my skis. If I tilt my skis to only 25% of what is necessary to achieve lock carve and I don't extend the legs to create pressure; I get skidded turns. I don't have to add rotary movements to achieve a skidded or as TTS call them, 'guided turns'.

Rotary movements are actually limiting, and they impose lower skiing quality, turn standards, with reduced control. That method also increases balance disruption. Anyone who tells you different does not understand their (own) skiing and is spewing dogma.

I have yet to see a student appear at our door complaining that they are carving too much and can't get out of a locked carved turn. I wish we could have that problem, as it is much easier to fix that situation, then the one where the student is steering as their primary movement function. We teach PMTS carving movements because that is what the client wants and needs to achieve higher levels of skiing.


Harald wrote:Once-and-for-all, the actions of tipping and tilting pull the femurs into passive rotation, to follow the tipping action of the skis, boots and skis. This is not taught in PMTS, it is part of the kinetic chain in action. Teaching active steering disrupts tipping and balancing so important to PMTS efficiency. In many advanced situations tipping with body inclination and body counter can reduce leg rotation almost completely and in this case there is no passive or active rotation of the legs. It always continues to amaze me that otherwise intelligent people can tell me that you can?t make ski turns with out rotary leg movements. It is very easy to prove that turning can be achieved without leg steering of any kind. Skis can also be turned without active tipping or rotary movements, but this is a flat ski turn. These are discoveries available only to skiers who are able to get out of their paradigm comfort zone.


Harald wrote:Pivoting a flat ski is not the, or one of the intents or outcomes of PMTS or a Phantom Move. If you are pivoting the stance ski you are not making PMTS movements as they are taught, written or designed. If you are using this approach you will pay for it when you are in situations when this approach has negative consequences. Especially if it is the way you shorten an arc. Pivoting the stance ski keeps the (center of gravity) CG over the stance ski and therefore does not create angles until the ski is moved away (skidded, pushed) from the CG. If you use this approach and develop it as a default movement, you will have great difficulty controlling speed on steeps, bumps and powder or crud.

A rotary force is not needed to move a flat ski into a skid or a pivot, gravity (if you start static) will pull the ski into the falline. Many different movements can assist in accelerating the pivot, such as leg rotation, fulcrum from the pole in the snow, counter rotation with leg steering. None are advocated by the PMTS system, but they do exist in skiing. You may be using non-PMTS movements to create quick, shortened, twisting direction changes. If you feel strong rotation of the ski, you are most likely using hip rotation and or leg/foot steering.

A tilting of the free foot, boot and ski to create an angle for the new turn does not constitute steering. It only externally rotates that femur and moves the knee out board of the ski. This is passive rotation of the femur and it is easily absorbed in the hip and doesn't transfer rotation to the stance leg. In PMTS the stance ski /foot follows the tipping of the free foot and creates angles of the ski and body to the surface very early in the arc. If you do this slowly and are able to stay balanced you will achieve a very short yet controlled turn or radius.


And here is a related post by HH from 2008: RE: Using WC Technique to justify what ever they want
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Re: Do we actively pivot/twist/steer skis in PMTS?

Postby h.harb » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:04 am

If you research this subject by searching the PTMS forum you will find that HH developed PMTS based on expert (WC) level skiing and he has been very clear that any pivoting/redirection is passive.


If you are striving for excellence in skiing, and less work with your thighs, PMTS will provide this. If you are just out for an afternoon slide down the mountain; it doesn't really matter what you do, and you will stay that way. However, if you want to really participate in the beauty and effortless command of difficult terrain and surfaces with one technique, there is only one approach. The approach is what the best skiers in the world use, it's tipping, not steering or rotating.
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