Movement Analysis of my Skiing From PMTS Folks

[*SCSA]

This is silly.

I've seen PMTS skiers who can't make a turn to save their lives. Same with PSIA skiers.

I've seen Demo Team members who couldn't hang with the posse. Same for PMTS...types.

I ski with a guy who has never had a lesson -- he leads the posse at times. I honestly don't feel that there's anyone here who can hang with him. He's smooth and he flies. What's his secret? He can balance on his edges. He's played hockey all his life.

Great all mountain skiing takes technique, for sure. But what really makes a great skier isn't the system. It's the mind. If a skier has it in their mind that they're going to ski great, nothing will stop them. A great skier will constantly challenge themselves and push themselves. Equipment helps too. For example the fat skis make a difference.

But it all comes back to balance. Then add in determination. I may not make picture perfect turns like HH -- no one does. But I don't want to make HH's turns -- I want to make my turns. What I've learned from PMTS is how to balance on my edges. My Gawd. I thank HH every day I ski. I practiced those damn drills until my legs were sore, then I did more. I knew, that the ticket to where I wanted to go in skiing wasn't in how well I could do a pole plant. It was how well I could balance on my edges.

You he/she/its want to ski great? You need to push yourselves, constantly challenge yourselves. You gotta want, to ski great. You gotta have the ability to balance on your edges. The rest, is just style points.

I think you all get too caught up in making perfect turns, too caught up in technique. Instead, take that time and go looking for funky snow, thick snow -- any kind of snow other than groomed. Spend 90% of your time there, 10% on groomers, practicing the drills. Make sure you're skiing bumps. You can go to a damn ski camp every day of your life. But you won't get better until you start concentrating your skills off piste.

HH's system is setup to teach a skier to ski all mountain. So you have what it takes. But all he can do is give you the recipe. It's up to you, to do the cooking.

[milesb]

Ott, I think you and I are talking about 2 different things. I have had many great lessons where no inefficient movements were taught or demonstrated, by PSIA instructors at Mammoth. In fact every one of them mentioned using the inside foot tipping to control turns. True, they were not able to show me how the movements fit together like PMTS does. But their skiing was much closer to what Harb has demonstrated than to what we saw on the Rob Sogard and Weems videos. On the other hand,where I ski in LA, there are plenty of he/she/its with bronze and silver pins that I would never recommend to anyone, based on their skiing.
So I'm just saying that the certified instructor should not show things like upper body rotation, stemming, A-frame etc, on terrain appropriate to that level. Which is also how the PSIA standard reads, at least from what I've seen. And I think Ben suspected as much when he posted here. It just bothered me that so many said that his skiing was up to that standard, including his trainers. Well, they really did him a disservice in my opinion, seeing as he flunked the skiing part.
Ben, I don't blame you one bit for being upset, I would too. But at least you learned something. Better now than when you tried for your level 3.

[Ott Gangl]

Great post, SCSA...

....Ott

[Ott Gangl]

>>>>to what we saw on the Rob Sogard and Weems videos.<<<<

Miles, those were pretty bad examples to put up for the best skiing D-team members have to offer. Had they been demonstrating wedge christies to the class, would you have concluded that that is their best skiing? I think those videos are irrelevant since they are fun shots shot by a classmate.

These guys/girls could make ANY kind of turn at will. But why they are the demo team is that they can go to an international congress and demonstrate the current school figures of their national ski schools.

An interesting observation was made at the last congress. There were HUGE differences from one country to the next in their demos, but the last day they all free skied together and they all skied so much alike you would be hard pressed to tell which country they came from.

So it's not about their ability, it's that they ski by the book when demonstrating their school figures, not so much when free skiing.

And you are so right, there is such a need for instructors that the bar for passing has been lowered way to much...

....Ott

[Joseph]

Respectufully Ott,
What does it tell you about the teaching systems when the highest level instructors demonstrate skiing one way, and then go off and discard those movements when they ski. If I were a student I would interpret this as a group of individuals who can actually do something to a very high level, but cannot teach to a level near or comparable to their own ability.

I had good lesson with an NCAA racer yesterday. I taught this skier the same movements that I would teach an intermediate or a beginner. I demonstated these movements, and when I was not demonstrating them, they were still in my skiing--because I use the movements that I teach--always.

Joseph

[Ott Gangl]

Well Joseph, were you to hire on to a PSIA teaching school you would teach wedge christies, steering and rotary. If you hired on in any of the European schools you would teach what they dictate, and I'm sure you have the skills to ski and teach whatever your employer demands. It's that way in any business. Wall Mart recently fired an employee for using K-Mart tactics of pointing the customer to the merchandise instead of taking him there in person. You really can't buck the system.

I remember when going from the Austrian up-unweighting to the French down-unweighting. So what. That was the way they wanted it taught, so be it.

....Ott

[tommy]

That was the way they wanted it taught, so be it.

Yeeeez Ott, I would have thought that a man of your experience and age would have the stamina to stand up for what *you* think is right....!

The customer,nor the boss, *is not* always correct! For any professional, IMHO it's our responsibility to stand up to what we think is right and correct, and not to give in...

But maybe I read something in your post that wasn't there...

Cheers,
T

[Ott Gangl]

>>> stand up for what *you* think is right....! ...The customer,nor the boss, *is not* always correct!<<<<

Yeah, and get fired. If you can't (or won't) do the job, "get out of here."

It may be different in Sweden, but in th USA when someone wants to hire you and pays you to do a job their way, they bring you in for a week, give you assignment and observe you then let you know if you qualify or not.

Say HH hired a PSIA crossover instructor to be one of his trainers and he can do PMTS perfectly, then sees him teaching steering nd rotary he would shape up or get canned even though the instructor may be convinced that steering and rotary is the superior way to teach.

In any system, you are either with the system or you are out.

And Joseph, in your ski school it must be that the way you teach is the norm. No problem with that.

....Ott

[piggyslayer]

Ott's posts made perfect sense to me.
Here is how I see it. Think a box with stuff. Some is little value, some valuable.
You have 2 choices: (1) pickup the junk from the box, (2) pickup valuables from the box.
In either case you separate junk and valuables.

Think of box as a set of movements. Focusing on picking up valuables would be consistent with calling them Primary, even name fits.

The story Ott has described suggests that at the end PSIA progression (I never went that far) the ?graduate? is told: remember all you have mastered, the stem entry, the wedge, the up-unweighting, the 2 footed stance, the steering, using big muscles, etc, etc. You learned all the movements except the very few left. Now go and ski with the only once left. And bingo we have a skier who got to Primary movements through PSIA progression and is on the road to experthood.

I think this is sort of funny.

Ben if I were you, I would RUN.

[Ott Gangl]

>>>The story Ott has described suggests that at the end PSIA progression (I never went that far) the ?graduate? is told: remember all you have mastered, the stem entry, the wedge, the up-unweighting, the 2 footed stance, the steering, using big muscles, etc, etc. You learned all the movements except the very few left.<<<

Don't forget, that's the road Harald took was that same PSIA path for four years on the demo team teaching stem, wedge, up-unweightin, etc.

He just went off on a tangent. Fine. He developed PMTS.

What makes you think that if Harald could leave those movements behind, everyyone else can't? That is kind of an arrogant position. Just because HH doesn't do a wedge turn or stem christie to smoke everyone around is because he can't?

That is really kind of funny...

.....Ott

[John Mason]

Harald actually kept questioning why are we demoning these bad movements. He almost got a primary movements approach going as the PSIA approved approach.

Ott - your post sounds like he quietly went along with the status quo that he found himself in. He didn't at all.

Also, Harald didn't get to the demo team in the normal pathways. He ran a race training program up in Alaska (little known skiers like Tommy Moe attended that program (but Ott, you have a picture with Tommy so you know who he is)). He also worked with the local instructors. It was those instructors that got him to try out for the demo team. Finding himself in a teaching world that was upside down as Joseph stated was the best thing that happened for the rest of us. The lack of adoption of primary movements from within even with proof of its effectiveness with beginners allowed the success HH now enjoys. So the picture of you "must do what you must" as an employee isn't quite right. A good employee sees a better way and tries through proper channels to improve the organization. If the organization doesn't realize this then the employee with a conscious by all means should switch jobs or start their own business.

(I have a similar story of trying to work within an organization then ultimately starting my own organization in my past - ultimately the organization adopted all I was trying to do about 8 years after I left - perhaps this will happen in PSIA some day. I can't complain since that was the genesis of my business. Had I not had my own falling out after trying to change things from within I'd still be a middle tier employee of a large company.)

Rather than adopt a system of primary movements PSIA went to "give the student an enjoyable lesson". This is where it has been ever since. A big umbrella, no actual scientific or systematic coordinated system of instruction, yet an implied dinasour of a program as spelled out by its certification standards and levels. What a mess.

No Ott, Harald has been consistent and tried to change things from about his first time down the hill as a demo team member.

I find the whole situation pretty funny because as a student with a need for logic in what I'm paying for and as a business owner that values my time I found PMTS and 2 other similar authors at the book store. Their writtings made sense. PSIA does not publish it's contorted illogical system of cert standards and level progressions for the public to consume. So if HH's stuff had become sanctioned by PSIA it may have been one of many paths and thus I would have never found it. Instead they would not change so HH kept teaching what he always taught and put it in books and videos that I - the consumer PSIA does not trust - was able to buy right off the public bookshelves.

So, I'm glad for the falling out. Otherwise I might well have been part of that sad sad retention rate most ski instruction generates.

Sorry ben - I replied directly to your question about camps and this thread continues down it's ski instruction philosophy path and I just couldn't let that picture of of HH's time on the Demo Team persist. If what Ott suggests about Rob S. that he skies in all fashions and methods so the video was not accurate, then that's pretty sad to not ski with his best stuff. The fact is most of the demo skiers embrace and use active rotary to create their transitions. Rob also advises this way in his articles. If you ask those three simple questions - role of the stance foot - role of the free foot - role of upper lower body in turns along with demonstrations of same on the slope I truely believe what we would see from Rob would be a different philosophy of what is good skiing than PMTS.

I was working with a lvl III cert on a ski deck doing my PMTS thing so I was nicely parallel (because I was doing sequential edge change initiated by tipping the inside foot which made it look perfectly parallel and simultaneous - everyone else including the lvl III guy was stemming). He had just come back from a national event run by the demo team encouraging a wider stance, knee drive, etc. So, Ott, you may want to say its the same stuff, but I see little evidence of it.

See you on the slopes at 10:30!!

[Ott Gangl]

Jeez, John, where did that come from? All I said is that HH spent four years on the demo team teaching and demonstrating the PSIA school figures of the time so he was perfectly capable of skiing them. There is nothing derogatory in that comment.

>>>Ott - your post sounds like he quietly went along with the status quo that he found himself in. He didn't at all.<<<

Didn't I just say that?

>>>He just went off on a tangent. Fine. He developed PMTS.<<<

So let's stop arguing about Harald. My whole point was,in aswer to piggyslayer, that like HH, skiers coming to PMTS most likely had the same background in ski progression and that it can be left behind if so desired.

And for every instructor, or even just a few, to chuck their teaching job in protest and start their own ski school is just not realistic. Now they and their families ski free, after quitting it would mean season tickets for all, and most of all the love of teaching would be denied.

Just like in public schools, you must teach the curriculum prescribed.

And lastly, let PMTS ski schools be established everywhere and instructors, not just student would flock to them...

....Ott

[piggyslayer]

What makes you think that if Harald could leave those movements behind, everyyone else can't? That is kind of an arrogant position. Just because HH doesn't do a wedge turn or stem christie to smoke everyone around is because he can't?

Ott you cannot possibly know what I think, you only may know what I wrote and I did not write any of that.
I have no disagreement with your statement that many good skiers have found their way to expert movements.
The argument is not about skiers, it is about teaching organization.

SCSA post is also valid, there are few born with ski talent and will develop into great skiers without any instruction
provided opportunity to ski often. Around the place I live, 10 days of skiing a year is considered ski bum, 20-30 days I do, is considered maniac. I have seen many great ?uneducated? skiers, I have seen none with 5-10 day per year of skiing. Teaching is important and it is sad that the biggest ski teaching org is so messed up.

OK, I am done, no more post on the subject.

Ben, sorry for contributing to hijack your thread. As you can see there is bunch of people here who share your frustration with PSIA.

[Joseph]

Ben,

I read the thread about your exam. Sorry that you didn't pass; I'm surprised. I wonder what over-flexed means too. What phase of the turn does it refer to? Where were you flexed too much in your skiing--all the time? I can see how feedback like that would be frustrating--especially when you learn about it when they tell you that you've failed. The inconsistency among examiners is never really going to go away. If you were to look at a ski school, you'd see several different philosophies on what is good skiing. Then extrapolate that over thousands of ski areas across the country and think of the variation in ski instruction.

This is a clear weakness in the system that is predominant now. Ott pointed out several times in this thread that a skier would feel frustrated getting PMTS from one instructor and then TTS from another--no doubt about it. Often though, they get this even within PSIA ski schools. One instructor says one thing, One says another. If the examiners can't even be consistent, then how can they expect instructors to be consitent. The problem is that they lack a defined way of looking at skiing.

One of the srenghts of PMTS, is that you will not get mixed messages or conflicting information. You could go to Fernie and get the same feedback from the guys up there as you would from Jay @ mt. hood, Harald in CO, Maria in CA, or us up in New England. We define what we are looking at in a skier the same way. How does the skier perform: Release, Transfer, Engage. What secondary movements is the skier using to facilitate or hinder, R,T,E. One of the refreshing things that I found with my first PMTS accreditation was that there was no gray area in either the skiing or teaching. Harald and Diana set forth strict guidelines on what PMTS standards for teaching are, and you either perform within those guidlines or you try again next year. The same thing with skiing. You have a standard that is clear and demonstrable. You always know where you stand.

Joseph

[Harald]

I will not sit back and let people misrepresent me, my teaching or my backgroud.

Ott, there are too many holes in your arguments to even begin to explain where you have been misguided. First and foremost, you know nothing about me and what you say about me on a public forum has always been wrong, half truths and exaggerations. So stop posting things about my history. If you want to know what I did or have done call me and ask, don?t make stuff up. This is very annoying. I have told you before, I believe you are a decent guy, but why do you want to continue to fabricate information about me. John tells it correctly, I know John, he has heard from me and other reliable sources.

You get upset because I make fun of Rotary and steering. I have hurt no individual; I have not attacked any individual with those light hearted jokes. Where were you when people on Epic where slandering me openly, personally and telling untruths and inaccuracies.

You were quiet. You even joined in and made despairing remarks about how I was only out to make money off the instructors and ski schools. You were the first to say PMTS would never work. Ott, you have come a long way since then, but you continue to misrepresent me and my history.

You get upset when I joke about steering and rotary, but you say nothing when I comment that the advice from PSIA instructors on Epic about Ben?s skiing addressed only his symptoms. There prescriptions were band-aids for obvious inefficiencies that require change, but the change must come from the roots of his understanding and movement. Those suggestions and comments by Epic posters, I read will change nothing in Ben?s skiing. That is typical of PSIA instruction it doesn?t address the real root of skiing and that is because it is a flawed system.

OTT wrote, Don't forget, that's the road Harald took was that same PSIA path for four years on the demo team teaching stem, wedge, up-unweighting, etc.

I never took this road, or fell for that garbage, I changed it the first day and the first opportunity. I never taught wedge Christie even in the seventies when I took out the odd classes at Stratton for Emo Henric.

The first time and last time I demonstrated a wedge Christie and wedge turn was in the Demo Team tryout. Afterward, any other time I ever performed those movements was to demonstrate how ridicules they were and still are. Yet, they go on and on teaching them. Don?t you see PSIA is killing the youth skiing market? Don?t you see the kids are changing to snowboarding because the teaching system is so boring ineffective and lengthy? Kids should be skiing parallel the first day on snow and they could be. If they were taught to ski parallel in one day they would stick with skiing. But, oh no, PSIA has to drag out the system to the kids with wedge and stems, while boring them to death. If I were a kid today and had to take two wedge lessons, the next day I would be a snow boarder. PSIA is so short sighted and so antiquated they are hurting the ski industry.

Ott, Let me begin to set the record straight for you:

I was never a PSIA member until the year I made the Demo Team. I never taught the wedge or wedge Christie. When I was Training Director at Winter Park I eliminated the Wedge Christie 1 and 2 from our teaching progression. I have coached world champions, Olympic gold medalists and world junior champions. I have skied on the World Cup and I have won FIS races and the Eastern Pro overall championships. I had the same Nastar handicap as Spider Sabich, (there were only two better in the country that year the other was Hank Kashiwa).

I teach what I ski and I ski what I teach. I have always done so and always will.

OTT wrote, Miles, those were pretty bad examples to put up for the best skiing D-team members have to offer.

So now you admit Sogard?s skiing was poor in the video. The rest of the Epic crowd was raving about how great his and Weems skiing was in that footage. Who is right, you or the Epic crowd? By the way, Sogard can not change that skiing. He can not turn around and make a run with efficient turns, I have seen him. Those are his default movements. He would have to change at the root of his movements like Ben.

Ott the way the Demo Team members ski in the video is the way they ski all the time, those are their mechanics. It doesn?t matter if they are demonstrating the slow dog noodle or the mambo, they have default movements that they always use, movements they trained into their bodies and are stuck with, and they show up in that video. Weems in particular is a perfect example the skiing PSIA produces. There is a short list of Demo Team members I respect, and they do not ski PSIA technique, methodology or dogma. I have countless instructors telling me how the examiners say one thing do another.

We PMTS examiners and trainers do not ski one thing and do another, we ski. We don?t talk trash for our students or instructor candidates. We don?t talk what doesn?t work. We don?t stick to the dogma just because it?s in the book.

OTT wrote, In any system, you are either with the system or you are out.

That?s exactly what has to change. Are we under a communist r?gime or a dictatorship? When will instructors wake up and want to learn a better way? When will instructors take it upon themselves to change how skiing is taught? Ski instruction today is a joke. By-en-large, PSIA exams are a joke, PSIA examiners are a joke (there are a few exceptions, there are good trainers and examiners that I know of but, they are just as frustrated about the exams and system as the student that finds out they have to unlearn everything they were taught by PSIA)

OTT, get this straight, PMTS is not a system, it is balance and movements. It is movements that skiers use to ski efficiently and effectually. I have taken movements that the very best skiers in the world use and I have constructed a series of easy steps for regular skiers to learn to access expert movements. Instructors are no different they need to learn these efficient movements, but they don?t have access to them unless they take PMTS training.

Within PMTS, you can go anywhere in skiing to solve problems based on movement and balance needs. In PSIA, the system dictates, increases stagnation, dead-end movements and discourages skiers. Look at the poor fellow Ben; he has been training for certification with PSIA. I guarantee, if he were training with PMTS, he would have those obvious inefficient movements eliminated. What does that tell you about the system? The system produces movements like Weems, Sogard and Ben.

If your ski school director doesn?t allow you to teach movements that are effective and that the guest wants, then your ski school director is a failure. In the mid west we have run into many failures in both the ski school directors and examiners and officials of the division. They are so dogmatic about the written word of PSIA they can?t see beyond their rotating legs. The president of PSIA Central, for many years was an example of someone holding the evolution and progress of skiing back. It comes back to the politics. The politicians run the show, not the skiers or the good instructors. There are many very good instructors in the mid west but the politicians hold back the development of good skiing and good teaching.

Ott, I am sorry that this sounds so harsh but most PSIA instructors are like sheep. They are told what to do and they run blind until they run off the edge of the cliff. They don?t question or experiment; they are too focused on getting that pin, so they can make an extra few bucks an hour. These few bucks will never buy a house or be able to support a family. Ski instruction is a worthless profession by most standards. But by God if you are going to do something in your life even if you pick ski instruction, be the best at what you do, don?t just become another sheep.