How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

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How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby Ken » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:45 pm

I've been working with a friend helping him practice PMTS movements. He attended a Super Blue camp in 2014 and is planning on another session in 2016. He's doing better, but at a slow pace. His blockage now is getting counterbalanced, especially during high C.

Tipping is good. Feet could be closer together, and he's working on that. (I had him working on a simultaneous 4-axis movement. Lighten the new free foot, tip it, pull it back, and pull it in to the stance boot.) Free foot management is going well. Counteracting is becoming automatic. He's relaxing to release, and that helps him eliminate his old heel thrust to start a turn. He's a good athlete at everything but skiing.

His blockage is getting past leaning in toward the hill. Getting his head and shoulders out and counterbalancing is the problem. Getting the feet really pulled back at the start of the turn. Video at the SB camp showed him getting upside down in one turn, but he had so much going on that he didn't feel it and doesn't know what he did right in order to repeat it. Getting that wonderful feeling of diving into the abyss and having your skis working under you. I've tried the two pole drag with CA. I've tried having him hold the outside pole a couple of inches off the snow way downhill from his heel. I've tried putting him into a demo position by poking him in the ribs with my finger while I pull the inside shoulder out for a traverse. He blocks it. He wants to do it, and his body (or likely his mind) won't let him.

Suggestions?
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby milesb » Thu Apr 02, 2015 4:10 pm

Can he balance on his stance ski?
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby Max_501 » Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:11 pm

Ken wrote:Getting that wonderful feeling of diving into the abyss and having your skis working under you.


We've said it before but I'll say it again..."diving" into the abyss or 'down the hill' isn't a PMTS construct! If you are feeling "diving" down the hill or into the abyss, you are out of balance.
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby h.harb » Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:13 pm

Ken, I don't know what you are talking about; we don't teach or advise what you are saying, we never have, it's doesn't work. Diving into the turn is counter productive. It separates your body movements from your skis. Please explain what you mean in a different way, if you are going advise skiers, by using PMTS. That stuff about diving, is old PSIA stuff that never worked.
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby Ken » Sat Apr 04, 2015 10:52 am

That's just the feeling I get when I pull my feet way under me at turn initiation and get upside down. I know, we aren't directing the body down the hill, but it feels like that to me, and I love it. I can't see my skis, they're under me, working for me, and I'm looking at the hill drop away in front of me.

Doing my best to emulate this skier:
Image

Anyway, what to do with a hill-leaner-inner?
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby Max_501 » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:18 pm

Ken wrote:That's just the feeling I get when I pull my feet way under me at turn initiation and get upside down. I know, we aren't directing the body down the hill, but it feels like that to me, and I love it.


The question is why are you feeling like you are "diving into the abyss" if you are in balance over the skis?

Ken wrote:Anyway, what to do with a hill-leaner-inner?


Depends. If they really are tipping and simply lacking enough CB then we use a combination of the CB and flexing drills. If they are leaning to get an edge then we work on tipping.
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby h.harb » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:24 am

Leaning into the arc or turn, with the upper body is often due to using extension from the uphill leg. Everything we talk about in PMTS is how to move efficiently. It is the direct opposite to what PSIA and what most USSA coaches teach. They talk extension, move your hips and projection, we do not.

You can not teach well with explanations of feelings or ones interpretation of what they are feeling. It is useless and leads to even greater confusion. It's a substitute for those who don't or can't teach movements or don't know the right movements. Let the student develop their own feelings, by teaching "How" to move, not with your feelings.

For example, I never sense that my body is projecting downhill, my sense is that I move across my skis, I tip them, and I flex the inside leg. Many people have told me my hips move downhill, but that is not what I focus on, I focus on what gets my hips moving downhill: like pull back, and flexing into the turn. There is no "downhill, hip moving muscle" in the body!!!!! Just as there is no forward hip moving muscle in the body. There are things we do with our legs, our "leg muscles" specifically, that create these observations, but that is what they are, observations or outcomes, they are not teaching methods.

If I do sense I'm projecting downhill I'm out of balance and have to recover to get back in touch with my skis.

Have him do the double knee touch exercise, through the transition. This will stop extension and leaning. You may still see him twisting and pivoting, but that is another issue. Another way to address this is to use my pole across the knees exercise I put up on You Tube last month.
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby Ken » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:41 pm

The poles across the knees drill worked very well.

The other thing that worked was when he said to himself, "just do it!"

"Skiing is ninety percent mental and the other half is physical."
With apologies to Yogi Berra.
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby Bonz » Wed May 20, 2015 6:32 am

Is the pole drag relative to this? I know that helped me.
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby Jeet » Wed May 20, 2015 8:59 am

Amateur comment: What's helping me is to think about movements and the muscles I must activate in order to produce those movements whilst doing dryland exercises . But this maybe a very simplistic way of looking at it?

One comment from Harald that helped me goes something like this: "You can counter balance all day with your shoulders and arms , but unless your hips participate you will only get 30% of the benefits"

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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby Jeet » Wed May 20, 2015 9:05 am

Also, is the Arch/Hand Lift exercise relevant in this case?
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby Max_501 » Wed May 20, 2015 9:39 pm

Check the chapter/DVD from Essentials that focuses on CB for the best drills.
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby h.harb » Wed May 27, 2015 11:02 am

This has been discussed thousands of times, CB has to eventually go to the hips, inside high, outside lower. Otherwise you are only using your spine to CB, not good. This is not a skiing limitation it a physical one. This needs to be resolved in dry land or physiotherapy.


We've said it before but I'll say it again..."diving" into the abyss or 'down the hill' isn't a PMTS construct! If you are feeling "diving" down the hill or into the abyss, you are out of balance.


Also, this has been repeated, it gives the totally wrong impression, if you are either teaching or learning CB. Your head and eyes are your major sensors in this case and if you are thinking diving your eyes and head will lead you. If in your head you are thinking dive to the abyss, you are already screwed.

You want to be thinking, "my head has to stay above my skis, or up hill in transition".

So Ken, you are confusing your student, giving out two contradictory messages. CB and diving into an abyss are not compatible.
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby cheesehead » Thu May 28, 2015 9:18 am

I tried the "diving into the abyss" thing out of curiosity. All it did was make me fall. Then I replaced that "diving" with a pull back move. It worked great, and I think, although I wasn't able to get video before the end of the season, that I was finally doing the pullback in the right place in the turn, something I had been having trouble with.
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Re: How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

Postby h.harb » Fri May 29, 2015 10:06 am

I'm not trying to pick on Ken here, but this is the major difference between PSIA teaching and PMTS movement instruction. We teach the movements that set you up for a release that does move the CM into the falline, "properly, with control and balance". PSIA is filled with jargon and visual cues or theoretical actions based on one person's bias. It is very difficult to learn this way.

I am not disputing that the C of G moves down the falline. However to get this so you can do it right, you have to know the movements that set it up. They are, new inside foot pull back, and upper body CB. Diving into the abyss sends the wrong message. Learn the PMTS movements and then you will be able to move consistently without fear of the new turn. If you want to go diving there are plenty of 10 meter platforms at swimming pools near you.
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