How to teach counterbalance to a into-the-hill-leaner?

[blackthorn]

I learn more each time from these types of threads. From my armchair these are my very encapsulated thoughts, the issues have been covered by many, in countless ways, on other threads, and in the books etcetc. Reading, and re-reading is very useful.

The student and teacher have, together have reached a 'block' - I know only little about either person.
It is described as something to do with counter movements - counter movements are higher level movements, and, physical limitations aside, are likely to result from more fundamental problems, or possibly feeling no need for them by simply using pressure/speed ie long turns on easy snow and slopes
Video for MA is really required - if there is no SMIM, then back to the beginning and rebuild balance, then movements etcetc
Imagery can be tried as a breakthrough, but can go wrong. The 'diving into the abyss' image may work in this case for the teacher, but for the athletic student it might be interpreted as a 'power dive off a cliff' and reinforce bad movements. Maybe better to ask the student what his feelings are and then reinterpret them, but this is all intuitive stuff. The more highly skilled the teacher the better they will be at this.

I predict that video would show 'pushing off' - solving that requires the above approach.
Over summer, tilt board exercises would likely help.
My 0.02c

[DougD]

Maybe better to ask the student what his feelings are and then reinterpret them, but this is all intuitive stuff. The more highly skilled the teacher the better they will be at this.

Asking a non-expert student how an incorrect movement feels may be counterproductive. Raising a student's awareness of sensations related to ineffective movements can actually reinforce them, even though that's not the teachers' intent.

Better to have the student isolate and perform the movement more correctly (or less incorrectly) via targeted drills. (Remember "Wax on, wax off." from the 'Karate Kid'? Harald's teaching is much like Mr. Miyagi's.) Once the student performs the drill correctly, it may be useful to ask how this feels. As the movement is new, it will typically feel strange and even uncomfortable. The teacher should explain that such sensations are normal and even desirable. This reinforces the learning process while focusing the student's attention on sensations associated with (more) correct movements. The student can then invoke useful sensations (and movements) by recalling their own vocalizations or images.

The 'diving into the abyss' image may work in this case for the teacher, but for the athletic student it might be interpreted as a 'power dive off a cliff' and reinforce bad movements.

Indeed.

I predict that video would show 'pushing off'...

As HH posted just above (he used the term "extension").

Lito T-F's original 'Breakthrough on Skis' incorporated both of these problematic movements. Turns were to be made by:
1. Early Weight Shift to the new outside ski (by extension or "pushing off");
2. Upper body falling downhill into the turn (a true power dive off a cliff, explained as such and clearly demonstrated in Lito's video); and
3. 100% outside ski dominance throughout the turn (more pushing off or extension).

On easier slopes this produced parallel turns with no stemming or rotation, but as slope/snow conditions became more challenging, the lack of inside foot management or tipping and the stiffness and balance problems that result from extension became more problematic. It was better than PSIA, then or now, but it was not PMTS.

As cheesehead observed, a power dive off a cliff does not work with a PMTS transition. If you release by flexing (both legs) and tip your skis flat to the snow, at this moment of transition a gross upper body dive downhill will send the unweighted, unedged skis flying uphill in an equal and opposite reaction. Result: faceplant. Cheesehead's fall suggests that he was using correct PMTS movements up until the moment of his experimental dive.

[blackthorn]

I'm really not trying to get into a debate because on a thread these things can just go round and round and get nowhere, but I do appreciate feedback. I'm certainly not trying to put others right.
Its just that there are times when a breakthrough might be needed. Harald has described an experience where he had to be innovative in a group teaching situation - I just can't locate the thread at this time, but he had them trying a very different movement to overcome a block.
Imagery is used in many forms of teaching and indeed can be useful. It is used a lot in teaching some sports to children. Even Max has used - 'float like a butterfly, sting like a bee!" Presumably it works for him. I certainly like the first part, but not the second. But if what we are watching is his bee sting then so be it - I'd love to ski like that.
In using imagery I,m not referring directly to feelings/sensations. The problematic nature of these has been well covered in other threads. But in asking the student to describe his feelings one might get a better idea of what imagery just might be useful........................

"pushing off" is not really a PMTS term, and has been covered in another thread. I probably shouldn't have used it. ( but as an image and a sensation I personally find the term useful, and I try to avoid doing it as much as possible.)

[blackthorn]

I'm really not trying to get into a debate because on a thread these things can just go round and round and get nowhere, but I do appreciate feedback. I'm certainly not trying to put others right.
Its just that there are times when a breakthrough might be needed. Harald has described an experience where he had to be innovative in a group teaching situation - I just can't locate the thread at this time, but he had them trying a very different movement to overcome a block.
Imagery is used in many forms of teaching and indeed can be useful. It is used a lot in teaching some sports to children. Even Max has used - 'float like a butterfly, sting like a bee!" Presumably it works for him. I certainly like the first part, but not the second. But if what we are watching is his bee sting then so be it - I'd love to ski like that.
In using imagery I,m not referring directly to feelings/sensations. The problematic nature of these has been well covered in other threads. But in asking the student to describe his feelings one might get a better idea of what imagery just might be useful........................

"pushing off" is not really a PMTS term, and has been covered in another thread. I probably shouldn't have used it. ( but as an image and a sensation I personally find the term useful, and I try to avoid doing it as much as possible.)

[Max_501]

Even Max has used - 'float like a butterfly, sting like a bee!" Presumably it works for him. I certainly like the first part, but not the second. But if what we are watching is his bee sting then so be it - I'd love to ski like that.

The sting is the load phase of the turn in fast paced advanced off piste skiing.

BTW, no idea what you mean by "Presumably it works for him." I rely on movements rather than imagery in my skiing. The 'float like a butterfly, sting like a bee' was just a mnemonic I offered for off piste skiing and defined as:

FLOAT - aggressively flex the legs so the skis release from the snow.

STING - apply the Essentials to harness momentum and blast through the snow.

[blackthorn]

I'm going back to movements. It just shows how digression gets interpreted in many different ways.

[milesb]

This shows why the SoCal PMTS contingent does not discuss feelings, under threat of BANISHMENT!!

[arothafel]

[h.harb]

Very funny, and just about as good as a leg steering lesson, for a deadened skiing experience.