Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

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Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby tarnaby » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:43 pm

Check out some of the language and ideas ("big toe edge", "little toe edge", "relax" and "narrow stance") in these ski tips from a Canadian ski magazine:

http://skicanadamag.com/snow-school/fou ... ths-skiing

Looks like HH talk at Whistler, books, videos and enthusiasts are getting the word out.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby BigE » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:29 pm

Those Ideas have not yet spread. The CSIA is still outcome based, not movement based. Their motto is "To provide a vibrant mountain experience." This does not include teaching someone to ski.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby jbotti » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:59 pm

I am no expert on what the CSIA is doing. What I can tell you is not to get too excited about the adoption of PMTS words. This has been going on in the US with the PSIA grabbing words and phrases from PMTS for at least the last 4-5 years. What it means isn't really that much. Usually if you get into a conversation with someone from the PSIA who is using said words, there is a distinct lacking of the proper understanding. I saw someone who was teaching tipping and lift and tip (phantom move) at my home mountain but in conversation this instructor equated it with steering and was still teaching steering (which for us is the opposite of tipping).

I feel confident that they will be stealing stuff from PMTS for many years to come and they will take full credit for it and most likely say that they have always taught ____ (as this person told me they have always taught tipping (Really? you cant be serious!!)). This instructor even told me that Bob Barnes (Mr Anti Phantom Move who called it one of the worst moves in skiing) taught and believed in it as well. At some point you just say Hooey and realize the level of BS that is being tossed around.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby BigE » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:05 pm

Well, at least the article in Ski Canada Magazine was rooted in sound principles.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby ChrisC » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:58 pm

I wasn't familiar with PMTS a year ago. If I'd read this article then I would have found it very useful because it contradicts many of the things I was being told in lessons by qualified instructors.

Of course, there are thousands of instructors and many of them are not going to change quickly, but it is a step in the right direction.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby BigE » Thu Mar 26, 2015 12:23 pm

Let's hope they do adopt those ideas -- and the teaching method to get you there.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby h.harb » Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:05 am

This is not CSIA material, philosophy or a new CSIA movement or program. Martin Olson the author, is a friend and follows PMTS closely. He has my books and videos. He is a strong believer in PMTS and uses it. That is why this one isolated article will not carry the day for Canadian instruction for the future.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby Ihamilton » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:26 pm

I have never met Martin Olsen but I have read his articles for over 25 years. What I liked about his writing was that he takes a holistic approach to coaching not just a tip. He must be open minded and very brave. I was as much interested in his ability to show how the present CSIA teaching method is simply wrong as I was in his coaching comments. He is walking a fine line. The CSIA tech committees would be hard on his case if he went much further and called for a complete revamping of the system but my interpretation is that is what he is calling for. I think he tried to even up his article by posting pictures of level 4 coaches, none of whom are as good as the pmts coaches and many campers. Who else could he post pictures of, HH? Olsen has been a top level CSIA coach for at least 40 years so he has some stature but you never know, the knives are long.
After HH was in Whistler a senior coach came up to me and he was upset that we invited HH, Diana and Jay up for a week of coaching. He said we have the best skiers in the world here why go outside. I said we don't have the best skiers in the world here, Marcel Herscher is the best skier in the world followed by the other WC racers. He looked at me and said " you'll never ski like Herscher does". I was dumbfounded. It isn't like I was a kid and he told me there isn't a Santa Claus. I was 65 years old and quite aware that I wasn't going to ski in the WC. This coach approached a friend and claimed that HH had Herscher pose for HHs blog. How do you respond to such utterly stupid inward looking comments? I think Olsen is taking a shot at it so kudos to him.
The Whistler Cup is on this week. It's a big race for kids under 20. Last year the Austrians cleaned up. I watched them practice. To me they look as good as their national team. Their skiing is pure pmts. The Canadians use a wide stance and keep both skis on the snow. I overheard one of our former national team members coaching the coaches to use a wide stance both skis on the snow. Olsen writes about how incorrect that approach is.
Jbotti commented about stealing pmts terminology. Watch this CSIA video on inside foot management, they don't get it. I had forgotten the bit at the end about skiing like an Austrian. Olsen has a lot of work to do.
http://youtu.be/Kpl3KeUi7wA
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby h.harb » Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:50 pm

The Canadians have many emperors without any clothes.
This coach approached a friend and claimed that HH had Herscher pose for HHs blog. How do you respond to such utterly stupid inward looking comments?


Yes, Marcel posses for PMTS pictures all the time, in fact, in every run, because he uses PMTS. The Canadian Level 4 guy was right. How stupid are these people?
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby Ihamilton » Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:10 pm

The last Whistler visit still rankles quite a bit. Some philosophers have the view that everything happens for a reason, maybe that applies here. The SS made it clear on the first day that our guests were not welcome. That is still very embarrassing. After all the group of skiers in the camp just wanted to have fun on the snow. this was not a serious matter such as negotiating a nuclear treaty. For us it was never about us versus them, we just wanted to do our own thing. That first night Harald delivered the best lecture I've ever heard on skiing. The room was packed and everyone was totally attentive. All of our camp skiers were there plus many others. The next four days we got the best teaching possible. Every camper was determined to listen to the coaching and give their best effort. The campers still talk about it so that the reputation of pmts instruction is very high with all non SS people who have heard what the campers experienced. I'm only pointing this out because I am aware of what Olsen would face if he appeared even slightly to suggest using pmts methods. I'm of the opinion that's why he didn't mention tipping in his article. He is walking a fine line and he has my respect for writing this article but the CSIA hasn't changed.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby BigE » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:21 am

From Alpine Ontario coaches, I have heard them instruct kids to tip their feet. To actually start at the ankles. This is not new,but it appears to have a stronger focus. I also heard a well placed AOA coach instruct a racer that you can control fore and aft balance by pulling your feet back! These ideas are certainly present in Alpine Ontario Coaching -- at least at my hill.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby Icanski » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:27 pm

Martin Olsen and I wrote an article on PMTS when they were talking about doing a series on 'other skiing styles". It got buried in their articles to be done. I have asked the editor several times if he would publish it, but nothing so far.
Having done a PDP with a level 4 CSIA instructor a couple weeks ago, he was discussing at one point "where do we start our turns from?" and his answer was that it came from turning the lower body and specifically that the feet weren't strong enough...pivoting the feet comes from rotating the hip socket. And starting the turn in that moment when the skis come flat. All the other instructors in the group were extending to start the turns as well.
He pointed out that I had my lower body turn initiation "well under control" but didn't see that I wasn't pivoting, but tipping.
So though there may be some mention of tipping or rolling the feet over, there isn't any real explanation of how to get a student from the wedge to rolling them over. It's just not part of the discussion or terminology or technique yet. This is the first time I didn't get told to spread my legs more. The snow was very heavy and corny, so he mentioned once to close them up to bust through it.
I was at Mt. Tremblant this weekend, and saw the instructors there, and most parallel skiers who were strong skiers still using big tip leads, and extension as they transitioned, and lots of inclination to get angles.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby DougD » Tue Apr 07, 2015 6:55 am

Icanski wrote: So though there may be some mention of tipping or rolling the feet over, there isn't any real explanation of how to get a student from the wedge to rolling them over. It's just not part of the discussion or terminology or technique yet.

Sadly, until they understand that expert skiers don't start their turns by "turning the lower body" and "pivoting the feet" by "rotating the hip socket", they never will explain it.

This is a good example of why grafting bits and pieces of PMTS onto other teaching methods (as BigE described) is usually fruitless. When the basic, underlying concepts are in direct conflict, the likely result is confusion - no matter how well intentioned the effort. Pity the poor students...

Still, that's better than the jingoistic fool who scolded Ihamilton for bringing PMTS to Whistler by clamoring that Canada (a routine 10th place finisher in Nations Cup points) already has "the best skiers in the world". :roll: Personalities that feed on denial close their minds to any chance of learning.
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Re: Have PMTS ideas spread to Canadian Instructors?

Postby skijim13 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:15 am

Doug, the PSIA still believes in turning the legs as well and they will never change their opinion, below is an example from what they call efficient movements changed some of the words not to be an exact copy


Turn your legs under your pelvis to guide the skis through a turn
These turning movements start in your feet and legs
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