Question about tipping

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Question about tipping

Postby sashalex » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:14 pm

Quick question about tipping. Lets say you are skiing strait down a slope and you would like to initiate a turn by tipping with your feet only. Would both feet tip at the exact same time, or would the inside foot still be the first to tip? Reason I ask is because I was practicing tipping from going strait down the slope and it seemed to me that when I tip the inside ski first, my skis always end up taking different trajectories (coming apart). When I try to tip both at once, same thing happens more or less. But when I tip the outside ski first, and the inside ski right after, the turn is just right. Please note, that this is specifically when going STRAIT down a slope...there is no question that when in transition, the inside ski must tip first.

Are my observations accurate? Or is there something wrong with my tipping?
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:45 pm

Inside tipping leads. Get video of the straight run to a turn so we can see what you are doing.

Here's a post by Jay (black level PMTS coach) that might be applicable to what you are doing when attempting to tip with the inside ski first -

SkierSynergy wrote:One other comment. For many of us, at some stage in the learning process, we can get into tipping with inside tip divergence. If it's during a phantom move, it can look like a "cork screw" tipping movement -- tip down and twist. This is a sign of steering with the muscles of the upper leg. You can get a really good fake tipping going by raising the tail of the ski as you twist to the inside. The LTE of the ski will contact the snow first, even if there isn't anything happening from the foot/ankle. Diverging limits tipping and adds rotary. There are some good exercises to eliminate cork screw tipping. If you like the target exercise. Pick out a target slightly more uphill than usual and point the free foot ski at the target as you tip and turn. Maybe others can also offer some more exercises.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby sashalex » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:42 pm

Max_501 wrote:Inside tipping leads. Get video of the straight run to a turn so we can see what you are doing.

Here's a post by Jay (black level PMTS coach) that might be applicable to what you are doing when attempting to tip with the inside ski first -

SkierSynergy wrote:One other comment. For many of us, at some stage in the learning process, we can get into tipping with inside tip divergence. If it's during a phantom move, it can look like a "cork screw" tipping movement -- tip down and twist. This is a sign of steering with the muscles of the upper leg. You can get a really good fake tipping going by raising the tail of the ski as you twist to the inside. The LTE of the ski will contact the snow first, even if there isn't anything happening from the foot/ankle. Diverging limits tipping and adds rotary. There are some good exercises to eliminate cork screw tipping. If you like the target exercise. Pick out a target slightly more uphill than usual and point the free foot ski at the target as you tip and turn. Maybe others can also offer some more exercises.


Thanks for response. But I still have a confusion...i should have been more specific. When I'm going strait down a slope, I am starting to tip with a 50/50 weight distribution on the skis. If I'm tipping the inside ski first with 50% of my weight on it, it seems to me that tip divergence is inevitable because the sidecut initiates before the stance ski. Now if I made a weight transfer to the stance leg (lets say 10/90 distribution) BEFORE tipping the skis, then I can also confirm that the inside ski leads the tipping. Normally I would practice tipping by transfering weight to stance ski first...but I discovered this dichotomy by practicing tipping with a 50/50 weight distribution.

So Is practicing tipping with a 50/50 weight distribution anti-pmts?
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:01 pm

Weight distribution makes no difference. Get video.

Note - the muscles responsible for eversion (tipping to the BTE) are stronger than the muscles responsible for inversion (tipping to the LTE). If you tip to the BTE first you will end up with an a-frame. If you try to tip simultaneously you will likely end up with an a-frame. Tip to the LTE first.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby sashalex » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:46 pm

Max_501 wrote:Weight distribution makes no difference. Get video.

Note - the muscles responsible for eversion (tipping to the BTE) are stronger than the muscles responsible for inversion (tipping to the LTE). If you tip to the BTE first you will end up with an a-frame. If you try to tip simultaneously you will likely end up with an a-frame. Tip to the LTE first.


Ill get video as soon as I can. But, right now i really want to understand why the inside ski should lead the tipping. You suggested that it has to do with the natural range of motion of the feet. Can you elaborate on that? I think I'm not the only one interested in a detailed explanation.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby jbotti » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:56 pm

What you are asking about is the key fundamental of PMTS. If you can't buy into that you should go get some PSIA lessons. The simple explanation is that the stance ski will follow the free ski (which is tipping to the LTE). Vice-versa however does not occur which means if you don't tip the free ski to its LTE, you will grab the BTE of the stance ski and you will have a wedge or a stem. Again, the stance ski will follow the free ski when tipped but not vice versa.

Ski divergence usually occurs from too much weight on the inside ski which will cause it to hook up (and start arcing) before the stance ski. Broken record, we initiate all turns with the LTE in PMTS (but you already know that). Broken record, post some video otherwise we are all just guessing.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby sashalex » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:12 pm

jbotti wrote:What you are asking about is the key fundamental of PMTS. If you can't buy into that you should go get some PSIA lessons. The simple explanation is that the stance ski will follow the free ski (which is tipping to the LTE). Vice-versa however does not occur which means if you don't tip the free ski to its LTE, you will grab the BTE of the stance ski and you will have a wedge or a stem. Again, the stance ski will follow the free ski when tipped but not vice versa.

Ski divergence usually occurs from too much weight on the inside ski which will cause it to hook up (and start arcing) before the stance ski. Broken record, we initiate all turns with the LTE in PMTS (but you already know that). Broken record, post some video otherwise we are all just guessing.


Jbotti, I dont "buy" into anything. I make decisions based on facts. You might be different, but some people are interested in detailed explanations. I have no interest in PSIA because their skiing looks like shit. You are saying that ski divergence occurs from too much weight on the inside ski...Max_501 just stated that weight distribution makes no difference. This dichotomy of opinion between two people with a combined 4500 posts, demonstrates the need for clarification. Perhaps the boss can weigh in?
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby jbotti » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:25 pm

Dude, get the books and read. If you had read anything you would not ask such stupid questions. And when you read you obviously don't read well. What Max said is true and my statement about loading up the inside ski has nothing to do with which ski gets tipped first.

If you want help act like you do and do the bare minimum!
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby jbotti » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:32 pm

And btw I answered your question.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby sashalex » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:07 pm

jbotti wrote:Dude, get the books and read. If you had read anything you would not ask such stupid questions. And when you read you obviously don't read well. What Max said is true and my statement about loading up the inside ski has nothing to do with which ski gets tipped first.

If you want help act like you do and do the bare minimum!


Dear Jbotti, I have purchased the books and most of the videos. If thats what you meant by "buy into", then I assure you I have. I have also read ACBAES 1 (in case you are wondering), and re-read...and I would challenge you to point me to the page which explains in detail why the inside leg must lead the tipping. I would still like to know WHY the inside leg must lead the tipping, if anyone can elaborate on this topic I would greatly appreciate it.

Note- it appears some some forum members are getting "touchy" about my question. I am not disputing that the inside leg should tip first...I am just asking for a more detailed explanation on why it is so. As someone with a lifelong passion for sports and their biomechanics, these kind of things are very interesting to me...and help me learn and visualize the sport.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby jbotti » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:49 pm

Not sure what is not explained by my statement below. Perhaps another way would be to say if you want a wedge, tip the BTE (on the stance ski) first. Then you will have both skis tipped to the BTE (a wedge or a stem).

"The simple explanation is that the stance ski will follow the free ski (which is tipping to the LTE). Vice-versa however does not occur which means if you don't tip the free ski to its LTE, you will grab the BTE of the stance ski and you will have a wedge or a stem. Again, the stance ski will follow the free ski when tipped but not vice versa."

If your question is why you can't tip them both at the same time? The answer is if you look at people who ski focused on tipping both feet simultaneously 90% of theses skiers still have a small stem. It is human nature to want to engage the BTE as soon as possible. There is an unconscious race in everyone's mind to engage the new stance ASAP (fear drives this and all skiers learn real fast that their ability to turn, control speed, hockey stop etc all come for having the stance ski engaged). Hence the only way to win this unconscious race is to focus on tipping to the LTE of the free foot first. And even when most attempt this, it usually takes quite bit of work and focus before a skier working on this can actually accomplish it.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:10 pm

sashalex wrote: I would still like to know WHY the inside leg must lead the tipping, if anyone can elaborate on this topic I would greatly appreciate it.


I gave the answer above...

Note - the muscles responsible for eversion (tipping to the BTE) are stronger than the muscles responsible for inversion (tipping to the LTE). If you tip to the BTE first you will end up with an a-frame. If you try to tip simultaneously you will likely end up with an a-frame. Tip to the LTE first.


For more detail see pages 50-51 of Anyone Can Be An Expert Skier 2.

But none of this will help in analyzing the issue described in the first post. We need video for that.
Last edited by Max_501 on Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby sashalex » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:16 pm

jbotti wrote:Not sure what is not explained by my statement below. Perhaps another way would be to say if you want a wedge, tip the BTE (on the stance ski) first. Then you will have both skis tipped to the BTE (a wedge or a stem).

"The simple explanation is that the stance ski will follow the free ski (which is tipping to the LTE). Vice-versa however does not occur which means if you don't tip the free ski to its LTE, you will grab the BTE of the stance ski and you will have a wedge or a stem. Again, the stance ski will follow the free ski when tipped but not vice versa."

If your question is why you can't tip them both at the same time? The answer is if you look at people who ski focused on tipping both feet simultaneously 90% of theses skiers still have a small stem. It is human nature to want to engage the BTE as soon as possible. There is an unconscious race in everyone's mind to engage the new stance ASAP (fear drives this and all skiers learn real fast that their ability to turn, control speed, hockey stop etc all come for having the stance ski engaged). Hence the only way to win this unconscious race is to focus on tipping to the LTE of the free foot first. And even when most attempt this, it usually takes quite bit of work and focus before a skier working on this can actually accomplish it.


Thanks for the explanation. Thats definitely one way you can rephrase my question. In any case, I'm glad we are getting past semantics and getting down to the point. So basically tipping the inside leg first is only important from a psychological point of view. Tipping both skis at the same time is theoretically possible...but rarely occurs. Interesting...I had previously thought that there was a biomechanical reason behind it.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby Max_501 » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:18 pm

sashalex wrote:So basically tipping the inside leg first is only important from a psychological point of view.


No, that is only part of the equation.

Please see the pages in Book 2 listed above.

sashalex wrote:You are saying that ski divergence occurs from too much weight on the inside ski...Max_501 just stated that weight distribution makes no difference. This dichotomy of opinion between two people with a combined 4500 posts, demonstrates the need for clarification. Perhaps the boss can weigh in?


That is not quite what jbotti said. He used the term"usually" and he is correct because so many skiers rotate and lean onto the inside ski which causes it to hook up and diverge. A totally different context than my post. BTW, I'm one of the PMTS coaches that volunteers my time to help on this forum. If that isn't enough of a "boss" for you I'd urge you to attend a camp where you can engage Harald in person.
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Re: Question about tipping

Postby sashalex » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:57 pm

Max_501 wrote:That is not quite what jbotti said. He used the term"usually" and he is correct because so many skiers rotate and lean onto the inside ski which causes it to hook up and diverge. A totally different context than my post. BTW, I'm one of the PMTS coaches that volunteers my time to help on this forum. If that isn't enough of a "boss" for you I'd urge you to attend a camp where you can engage Harald in person.


I was only going off of what you and Jbotti wrote... as someone who is a PMTS beginner, i am unfamiliar with different "contexts", so your responses seemed to contradict each other. Forgive me if i sounded brash.
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