Question about tipping

[Max_501]

I glued my boots together, tipped the inside foot and the stance ski followed...no divergence. Thats what I love about skiing...the details are so important.

You were able to ski with a 50/50 weight distribution with the boots glued together?

Also, here is my suggestion to you back on March 5th. If you do this you shouldn't have to worry about things like divergence due to lack of inside foot management.

Start with page 1 of Book 1. Don't skip chapters or drills. Don't move forward to the next chapter until you have mastered the material in the current chapter. After book 1 go to book 2 and master each chapter. If you want to ski anything like Harald that is the way to get there.

[sashalex]

As always, I appreciate your input.

[Max_501]

As always, I appreciate your input.

You were able to ski with a 50/50 weight distribution with the boots glued together????

[geoffda]

When you start tipping with the free foot, provided your stance is narrow enough, the movement of tipping that foot (and only that foot) will automatically begin to move your center of mass across your feet and into the new turn. Basically, tipping with the inside foot causes the hips to move laterally so that they are no longer over the base of support (the feet), at which point they can move downward. The movement of the center of mass into the new turn is what pulls the stance foot onto big-toe-edge. If you do something to disrupt the movement of your center of mass into the new turn, then you will interrupt the mechanism that allows big-toe-edge tipping to follow and you will get divergence.

While my previous post was directed at sashalex and what I thought might be his specific problem, there is more to the story that is probably worth mentioning. While tipping movements are one way to cause our center of mass to move, they are not the only way, or even the primary way. Once we begin to generate energy in our skiing and our turns become dynamic, we no longer rely on tipping movements to cause our center of mass to move into the new turn. Instead, when we release, the forces we generated from the previous turn will launch our center of mass across into the new turn. The choice of the word "launch" was deliberate as the forces involved can be very large.

Whether the forces we have generated at release are large or small, the trick is to control the the transition as it is happening so we are not thrown out of balance. That it is where tipping and the rest of the Essentials come in. The application of tipping movements (tipping, flexion, etc) during transition are how we maintain balance and give us the ability to turn what would otherwise be a very chaotic moment into a very controlled one. Being in balance during transition is the prerequisite for complete control over all turns in all conditions.

[DougD]

Geoffda,

Very insightful posts and insights on this thread. Thank you.

For the avoidance of doubt, I believe that when you stated, "Once we begin to generate energy in our skiing and our turns become dynamic, we no longer rely on tipping movements to cause our center of mass to move into the new turn.", you did not mean to suggest that we should cease Tipping. You meant only that the use of Tipping movements becomes more refined.

My understanding is that active, controlled Tipping is an integral component of every PMTS turn at every level. However, once a skier can properly harness the huge amount of energy stored in a dynamically loaded ski (with correctly timed Releasing movements), the relatively tiny amount of energy available from Tipping is no longer tasked to be the primary mover of our center of mass. With ski rebound doing the heavy lifting, so to speak, Tipping is primarily used for the subtler work of controlling balance and edge angles.

Please correct if I've misunderstood.

[geoffda]

Geoffda,

Very insightful posts and insights on this thread. Thank you.

For the avoidance of doubt, I believe that when you stated, "Once we begin to generate energy in our skiing and our turns become dynamic, we no longer rely on tipping movements to cause our center of mass to move into the new turn.", you did not mean to suggest that we should cease Tipping. You meant only that the use of Tipping movements becomes more refined.

My understanding is that active, controlled Tipping is an integral component of every PMTS turn at every level. However, once a skier can properly harness the huge amount of energy stored in a dynamically loaded ski (with correctly timed Releasing movements), the relatively tiny amount of energy available from Tipping is no longer tasked to be the primary mover of our center of mass. With ski rebound doing the heavy lifting, so to speak, Tipping is primarily used for the subtler work of controlling balance and edge angles.

Please correct if I've misunderstood.

Correct. In order to stay in balance when releasing and unleashing turn forces, we actually have to be correspondingly aggressive with our tipping, etc. In high energy skiing, our center of mass will move into the new turn once we release. If we let it lead the way, we will either end up hip dumping or leaning in, or even propelled into a HeluvaRelease. None of these outcomes are conducive to balance and ski control (particularly the last one). Instead, we want to use correct movements of tipping, etc. to keep ahead of the game and take advantage of the kinetic chain to stay in sync with our center of mass as it moves into the new turn, as if we were accomplishing the center of mass movement by tipping, etc. alone.

Edit: Here's a nice description of why we have to keep tipping:

[The reason why] we tip is to activate the kinetic chain so we have very precise balance control throughout the turn. If you skip tipping the kinetic chain is not activated from the base and then much larger muscles are used to attempt to stay in balance (with varying degrees of success). It really is that simple.

[geoffda]

Here a couple of relevant older posts that are well worth reading, courtesy of the PMTS historical society (otherwise known as Max_501). Both of these posts provide further insights into the kinetic chain and how the movements work together in concert to build balanced skiing.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=539 (from Harald)

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=351&start=0 (from SkierSynergy)

[sashalex]

Great posts geoffda...your ability to break down these movements is refreshing (and reminiscent of a certain ski author we all know ). Applying your sugestions made a world of difference at the hill today, which I hope to share soon in my MA thread.

[Max_501]

Applying your sugestions made a world of difference at the hill today, which I hope to share soon in my MA thread.

Did you get video of gluing your boots together while you maintained a 50/50 weight distribution and tipped the inside ski (the subject of this thread)? Until we see the video its all just a guessing game.

[HeluvaSkier]

Applying your sugestions made a world of difference at the hill today, which I hope to share soon in my MA thread.

Did you get video of gluing your boots together while you maintained a 50/50 weight distribution and tipped the inside ski (the subject of this thread)? Until we see the video its all just a guessing game.

+1

Quality video always provides more insights than a beginner's perception of what they may or may not be doing.

[sashalex]

...which I hope to share soon in my MA thread.

[h.harb]

I am posting this because people who want answers here, should first read the material. Prescribed as MAx501 and others have so often posted. This is a very simplistic subject and has been covered to exhaustion on this forum and in my literature. Max501 and Geoffda are being super patient. I may not be that patient on the Forum when you are told how, what and where to look, and are given the answers numerous times already, and still want to argue your case. And you can't possibly discuss your opinion of your own skiing movements on the forum, when your skiing has not been evaluated by a PMTS instructor.

This is actually ludicrous and a waste of everyone's time. I demonstrate this by the discussion below. It simply unproductive, follow the steps and read, completely and thoroughly. It is clear in this ongoing discussion, this has not been done.

sashalex wrote:
Because this discussion proves without a shadow of a doubt that the inside leg should lead the tipping.

I never wrote: You tip the inside leg, (unless to describe what happens further up the kinetic chain) I write in my books "tip the foot, ski or boot". Therefore you are re-wording my writing and therefore confusing yourself and creating a Epic forum like, waste of time.
If a student believes that Harald knows what he is talking about and follows the progression outlined in the books and this forum there shouldn't be any doubt. Tipping to the LTE always leads.

sashalex wrote:
This discussion fully resolves the divergence issue because it implies that there is a flaw in my tipping technique. No there is a flaw in your reading comprehension technique.


The possible flaw in technique was covered in the 2nd post. Unfortunately the information in this thread can't resolve the issue because we don't know what is causing the divergence without video.

sashalex wrote:
But I'm still not fully convinced because I don't know if you truly understand what I was originally asking. Argumentative, waste of time!!


And there is the main reason this thread continues. You are not convinced that a Blue Level PMTS Coach understands how to start a turn from a straight run.

sashalex wrote:
To rephrase my question...does the inside leg still lead the tipping if you have not made the weight transfer to the stance ski. No, it's not the leg??!! What he hell????


Rephrasing the question doesn't change the answer.

sashalex wrote:
To me thats confusing because I don't see how its possible to make a parallel turn without first transferring weight to the stance ski.


IMO you have jumped too far ahead and that is the source of your confusion. In PMTS we learn to make parallel turns with 100% of the weight on the stance ski, inside ski, and any combination of the two.

Max he's not jumping ahead, he's not following directions.
Here's an old post I wrote some time ago -

Max_501 wrote:
Learning PMTS can be very simple if you follow the progression HH has given us. Book 1, Book 2, then Essentials. No need to over analyze or question the steps that HH has laid out in the books and on this forum because they simply work. Nike has a slogon "Just Do It" and that applies here. Just Do It [PMTS] and you will be on the road to expert skiing.

Nearly every question I can think of has already been asked and answered on this forum. The best way to search the forum is to use Google. Here is an example that you can type into the google search box to find information on counteracting movements here.

[h.harb]

And as a side note, you can't start "tipping" unless you relax and flex or bend your leg, this has to be in order, if you don't let go of your ski, foot and boot, can't tip. You have to build your transition. To understand transitions, there are three steps, flexing or relaxing, transfer and balancing, tipping and engaging. tipping doesn't and can't be done unless it's in the correct order. Divergence is steering, simple as that. You are steering if you are diverging. Even in tipping movements there is some divergence, you have to learn to control your own divergence. In steering movements there is only divergence and skidding, no tipping, (they compensate by leaning or inclination, that's why PSIA skis they way they do. This is not PMTS.

[BigE]

A To understand transitions, there are three steps, flexing or relaxing, transfer and balancing, tipping and engaging. tipping doesn't and can't be done unless it's in the correct order.

This is a gem! The perfect executive summary.

Thank you.

[Max_501]

I am posting this because people who want answers here, should first read the material.

For the newer forum members out there. Harald has been saying to read the material for over a decade. Here's a post from 2004!

Many readers tell me they go directly to the page in the book that addresses their skiing motivation and they read those pages. They do not read the pages where the steps are explained and built to achieve the movement they want to perform immediately. Exercises that build your basic skills are not sexy and they don't look like fun, so they are too often passed over. I have skied with such readers. They are always astounded at what preliminary work must be done with fundamentals before they are really able to perform what they want in their skiing.

I can guarantee, if you read my books and follow the steps and practice to become somewhat proficient with all the exercises in the books, you will attain a level of skiing beyond your wildest dreams. The challenge is that not many skiers are able to evaluate which exercises are needed next or which exercises are most important for their own personal development. Remember, everyone's movement needs are different. There is no substitute for a well trained PMTS instructor at varies points in the learning process even with the books and videos. I have countless skiers come to ski with me; most of them have read my books. They tell me, "I have really focused on the phantom move and I have it down." When we get to skiing, I often notice that the quality of movement that I see on the snow rarely matches the skier's enthusiasm for the movement. This brings up the topic of practice vs. perfect practice and how to evaluate your own performance. I will be covering these topics in the new book.

Videos are also only marginally helpful as learning tools unless you know exactly what you are looking for and how to duplicate it for your understanding of movement. Video does help to clear some confusion of how the movement works. Visual learning is difficult and requires training and coaching in how to use it. I often demonstrate movements to skiers, but the learning that is achieved through demonstration is minimal if not totally ineffective. The most successful way to learn is by realizing an experience. PMTS trainers and instructors are trained to structure experiences for students. My books are written in a manner to help structure an experience for the reader. But the skier must then go out on the snow and systematically restructure that experience for themselves. If they have been able to do that reasonably well, how do they know whether or not they are on the right track and what the next adjustment should be.

I can tell you one thing for certain, good ski lessons are very difficult to find. Teaching skiing well is very complex and it requires experience and the right training to become an excellent instructor. The topic on the forum suggesting free ski lessons I find comical. You must be joking to suggest free ski lessons. As one poster on that thread suggested, ?What value is there in free lessons when the ones you are willing to pay for are rarely adequate.

I am not attempting to defend my books here, as they are what they are and they stand on their own merit, I am suggesting that a different approach be used if you want to optimize the information in the books. There is much more to 'Expert Skier 1&2' than what most skiers pull out of them. If you hire me to give you a lesson, I am presenting mostly what I have written. During the lesson I have you try different exercises and movements and I give you feedback on your success. We move on by refining these movements, trying other movements, if one isn't working. In the end, I build the movements back into your regular ski turn to bring your skiing to the next level. You can do this on your own with the information in the books, but it requires more involvement and concentration from the reader.

Will my new book be the answer you are looking for? My new book will have new content, but it will not be the answer to your skiing motivations unless you are ready to make the commitment required to use printed teaching information as you would if you were taking lessons from a PMTS instructor.

Skiing and the methods used for teaching skiing are part of the learning process, but correct technical information is also a big part of learning to ski the modern way. Traditional teaching systems are not teaching skiing with proper technical information for optimal shaped ski use. My new book will contain the methods and technical information to evolve modern shaped ski skiing. Whether or not you will be able to pull this information out of the book and put it to use in your skiing will depend on how you study and use the information, but I guarantee again, the information will be there.